[Dovecot] Lack of external documentation?
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
Does anyone know of any manuals/books that have been written that might introduce me to most of the stuff in dovecot?
So far, the list has been great, but once the "dsync" threads started popping up, I find there's even more I don't know about.
Thanks for all the help I've received so far and I think I'm really going to like dovecot. Once I get the hang of it, I'll probably reduce the amount of noise on the list by half.
steve campbell
On 03/15/2012 03:06 PM, Steve Campbell wrote:
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
The best docs are on the wiki and this mailing list. If you find the information in the wiki to be lacking, the best thing you can do is find the solution yourself and/or on this mailing list, and then make a wiki entry so the next person will know how to solve the same problem you had.
Dovecot is a complex piece of software, and understanding some functionality requires reading the wiki, asking on the mailing list and/or examining the source code. You can also obtain paid support from these companies: http://dovecot.org/support.html
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help.
Terry
On 15/03/2012 19:27, Terry Carmen wrote:
On 03/15/2012 03:06 PM, Steve Campbell wrote:
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
The best docs are on the wiki and this mailing list. If you find the information in the wiki to be lacking, the best thing you can do is find the solution yourself and/or on this mailing list, and then make a wiki entry so the next person will know how to solve the same problem you had.
Dovecot is a complex piece of software, and understanding some functionality requires reading the wiki, asking on the mailing list and/or examining the source code. You can also obtain paid support from these companies: http://dovecot.org/support.html
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help.
Terry
What he said +1. I don't want to be-little IMAP software or the work that Timo has done to get dovecot to the IMAP server world, but IMAP in general is a small enough subject to only really warrant two maybe three books - the most recent of which was written 5-7 years ago. The original release of dovecot was around 2002, but I don't think it became as widely adopted as Courier / Cyrus until around 2010. I wouldn't be surprised that if there is a next edition of "The Book of IMAP" or the O'reilly "Managing IMAP" that there would probably be an equal share section on dovecot than any other server out there.
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:27:37 -0400 Terry Carmen articulated:
On 03/15/2012 03:06 PM, Steve Campbell wrote:
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
The best docs are on the wiki and this mailing list. If you find the information in the wiki to be lacking, the best thing you can do is find the solution yourself and/or on this mailing list, and then make a wiki entry so the next person will know how to solve the same problem you had.
Dovecot is a complex piece of software, and understanding some functionality requires reading the wiki, asking on the mailing list and/or examining the source code. You can also obtain paid support from these companies: http://dovecot.org/support.html
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help.
The lack of truly informative documentation has been the Achilles' heel of open-source software since its inception. I feel your pain. I have always loved a hard copy, i.e. book documenting the subject I am studying. Jumping from screen to screen sucks, plus how do I highlight a passage on the monitor for future reference? There have been a few books written to document Postfix, but to the best of my knowledge, none exist for Dovecot.
-- Jerry ♔
Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
On 3/15/12 4:46 PM, Jerry wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:27:37 -0400 Terry Carmen articulated:
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for. The best docs are on the wiki and this mailing list. If you find the information in the wiki to be lacking, the best thing you can do is find the solution yourself and/or on this mailing list, and then make a wiki entry so the next person will know how to solve the same
On 03/15/2012 03:06 PM, Steve Campbell wrote: problem you had.
Dovecot is a complex piece of software, and understanding some functionality requires reading the wiki, asking on the mailing list and/or examining the source code. You can also obtain paid support from these companies: http://dovecot.org/support.html
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help. The lack of truly informative documentation has been the Achilles' heel of open-source software since its inception. I feel your pain. I have always loved a hard copy, i.e. book documenting the subject I am studying. Jumping from screen to screen sucks, plus how do I highlight a passage on the monitor for future reference? There have been a few books written to document Postfix, but to the best of my knowledge, none exist for Dovecot.
I like books, but, especially in the case of actively developed software such as Dovecot, they become outdated very quickly.
I have two editions of the Unix System Administration Handbook (can't remember the last time I looked at them), and two editions of Backup & Recovery. I use Amanda for backup. It has been developed actively over the last several years, and the Backup & Recovery chapter on Amanda is sorely out of date. The wiki, the users mailing list, and the man pages are the only way to really be up-to-date. With the book, you won't know anything about any changes or additions since the book was written, which would have been at least many months before it was published.
I'm into online documentation every day. I'm a Solaris admin, but I've been jumping from Solaris 10 to Ubuntu without any books, and I've been jumping from ZFS to LVM without any books. That's a significant transition. But it seems I can find almost everything online. Sometimes another admin gives me an explanation and a link.
It's just the way things are. The digital world is moving too fast to be frozen in print.
--
Chris Hoogendyk
- O__ ---- Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology& Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center
<hoogendyk@bio.umass.edu>
---------------
Erdös 4
- Jerry <dovecot@dovecot.org>:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:27:37 -0400 Terry Carmen articulated:
On 03/15/2012 03:06 PM, Steve Campbell wrote:
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
The best docs are on the wiki and this mailing list. If you find the information in the wiki to be lacking, the best thing you can do is find the solution yourself and/or on this mailing list, and then make a wiki entry so the next person will know how to solve the same problem you had.
Dovecot is a complex piece of software, and understanding some functionality requires reading the wiki, asking on the mailing list and/or examining the source code. You can also obtain paid support from these companies: http://dovecot.org/support.html
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help.
The lack of truly informative documentation has been the Achilles' heel of open-source software since its inception. I feel your pain. I have always loved a hard copy, i.e. book documenting the subject I am studying. Jumping from screen to screen sucks, plus how do I highlight a passage on the monitor for future reference? There have been a few books written to document Postfix, but to the best of my knowledge, none exist for Dovecot.
Dovecot is a moving target and it is hard to produce any print that represents what Dovecot can do when the print finally will be released. I know, because I am one of the two authors who wrote "The Book of Postfix" and we found it hard if almost impossible to keep up with Wietse's pace when he wrote major parts of Postfix.
For now, I believe, the wiki and the mailing list is as good as it gets. Later when Dovecot settles a book might be something to write and something to spend money on because it lasts for a while.
man pages would be a good thing, but given Dovecots configuration syntax and flexibility this might be an even harder task. Its probably easier to describe certain aspects of configuration or use cases than list all options and their possible occurences.
p@rick
-- state of mind ()
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Quoting Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net>:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:27:37 -0400 Terry Carmen articulated:
On 03/15/2012 03:06 PM, Steve Campbell wrote:
Firstly, this isn't meant to be critical, and I realize the subject line probably suggest criticism, so...
I was sort of forced into using dovecot as my imap/pop server due to upgrading 3 versions of OS on my mail servers. So far, that's not bad. What surprises me is that one of the first things I usually do whenever I start using different software is to purchase a book that seems to suit me. Searching all of the common places like amazon, ebay, etc for manuals turned up little to nothing on dovecot.
I'm wondering why and is this so new that people just haven't written books about it yet?
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
The best docs are on the wiki and this mailing list. If you find the information in the wiki to be lacking, the best thing you can do is find the solution yourself and/or on this mailing list, and then make a wiki entry so the next person will know how to solve the same problem you had.
Dovecot is a complex piece of software, and understanding some functionality requires reading the wiki, asking on the mailing list and/or examining the source code. You can also obtain paid support from these companies: http://dovecot.org/support.html
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help.
The lack of truly informative documentation has been the Achilles' heel of open-source software since its inception. I feel your pain. I have always loved a hard copy, i.e. book documenting the subject I am studying. Jumping from screen to screen sucks, plus how do I highlight a passage on the monitor for future reference? There have been a few books written to document Postfix, but to the best of my knowledge, none exist for Dovecot.
-- Jerry â
Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
So many great replies, but I'll pick this one to use as my reply-to since it mirrors mostly how I feel about my experiences so far when it comes to learning Dovecot.
I installed a new server, going from Centos 3 to Centos 6. I found that Postfix was the preferred SMTP server and Dovecot was the preferred imap/pop server. I gave Postfix my best shot, but didn't really have it tested well enough to stick with it, so I dropped back to Sendmail, something I'm somewhat familiar with. I've read multiple versions of O'Reilly's Sendmail books along with the Sendmail Cookbook. I have to admit that it was these books that made me realize the power of Sendmail. Post l website to further learn, but I had to get the basics first to do what needed to be done to get the job into a working server.
Dovecot is an application that probably would work out of the box for me if I didn't have to use data from the previous server. So I had to use more than the standard options to make this work. Finding those options was the main gripe I had with the wiki - there are just so many options to make Dovecot the complete server. That's a good thing. Just remember, us noobies-to-Dovecot have to discover all of those options.
I mentioned that I was happy with the wiki and the list when it comes to answering my questions. But I'm sure the list will get tired of me asking what must appear to be redundant, simple, obnoxious questions. The index-like wiki page is most helpful.
I knew dovecot has been around for a while, but didn't know how mature it was. The fact that Centos/Red Hat uses it as a default says quite a bit about it's reliability, so I'll stick with it. One of the the things I was planning on doing was combining two servers, which services one domain on one server and services two other domains on the other, into one server, and have the other as a server-in-waiting. So along comes this dsync thread, and now it appears that Dovecot might make that all easier. I see all the potential Dovecot has, but learning it is a little difficult for us new users.
Once I get the hang of it, I'm sure I want need to search for the things I need to find, but for now, a good book would have been nice and a lot easier.
I give all the praise to Timo that he deserves. (I'm guessing he's either the developer, the lead guru on the list or something of that stature). I like what I'm seeing, I'm just not always seeing what I need.
Again, this is not critical in nature. I'm just stating what this particular rookie is conveying to the list about my experience (and lack of experience) in getting where I need to be with Dovecot.
Thanks for such a great application, all the great replies and help so far.
steve
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On 2012-03-15 3:27 PM, Terry Carmen <terry@cnysupport.com> wrote:
On 2012-03-15 3:06 PM, Steve Campbell <campbell@cnpapers.com> wrote:
Does anyone know of any manuals/books that have been written that might introduce me to most of the stuff in dovecot?
I'll be the first to admit that complex and specialized configurations are sometimes difficult to figure out, however this list has always been a tremendous amount of help.
I agree completely. The ability to come to places like this and get answers directly from the software developer(s) is one of the main reasons I love open source software. And I will also say that Timo (yes, Steve, he is *the* dovecot developer, although he has had some excellent help for a while now) and this list is one of the most civil & respectful of any list I've been on, and the quality of support/answers is second to none. The postfix list is imo just as good as far as the quality of support, but they are very strict on 'form' - ie, no top-posting, you're expected (and often reminded) to read the instructions in the welcome message as to 'How to report a problem' and to actually follow those instructions - and quite often their replies seem harsh and unfriendly. I'd actually like to see dovecot have a similarly detailed welcome message (complete with a link to a detailed wiki page on 'How to Report a Problem' along with some helpful troubleshooting tips), but as much as I dislike top-posters (especially those who blindly quote the entire message they are replying to), I'm glad that this list is a bit less strict on form, and just seems more friendly.
I for one would *love* to see some kind of 'The Book of Dovecot' (like 'The Book of Postfix'), but one reason I can see that would keep someone from wanting to write one is that dovecot (like most popular open source software) is still a very fast moving target as compared to the useful life of a book. Maybe his commercial support company can provide the resources for writing one once the target slows down a bit - or maybe even start off writing [a][some] smaller 'Basic Configuration' guide[s] for the things that aren't such fast moving targets that could eventually become chapters in a more comprehensive book. That would I think be a (admittedly probably fairly small) revenue generator, but hopefully at least enough to pay for itself and maybe provide a small profit.
Another option I can think of would be for Timo to provide a method for people to pay a small fee for his support company to write up a custom 'How-To' for someone based on a list of requirements. I would imagine this as a web page that is put together with the appropriate questions, the answers for which are necessary to accomplish the goal.
Of course, the other option is for other people to step up and 'fix the wiki' or 'write the Book' (or How-Tos), instead of just complaining about the lack (no offense, your 'complaint' wasn't all that bad). Yeah, I know this is the standard answer on free/open source software support lists, but it is the standard answer for a reason.
On 2012-03-15 9:08 PM, Steve Campbell <campbell@cnpapers.com> wrote:
I found that Postfix was the preferred SMTP server and Dovecot was the preferred imap/pop server. I gave Postfix my best shot, but didn't really have it tested well enough to stick with it, so I dropped back to Sendmail, something I'm somewhat familiar with.
I understand the argument for sticking with something you're familiar with, but I don't think you gave postfix a fair shot either - and it *does* have a number of excellent books written for it, so you don't have that excuse for postfix... ;). It is *much* easier to configure and run than sendmail, is much more performant and supposedly much more secure (just going by what I've read), and can do most anything that sendmail does (even supports milters).
Dovecot is an application that probably would work out of the box for me if I didn't have to use data from the previous server. So I had to use more than the standard options to make this work. Finding those options was the main gripe I had with the wiki - there are just so many options to make Dovecot the complete server. That's a good thing. Just remember, us noobies-to-Dovecot have to discover all of those options.
You always have the option to get commercial support for fast resolutions to complex problems like this... ;)
--
Best regards,
Charles
On 15.3.2012, at 21.06, Steve Campbell wrote:
The one thing I'm a little critical of, though, is that trying to make heads or tails of dovecot by following the online documentation is a little problematic. I'm constantly jumping to another page and then back to the original page, and for the most part, I just don't know enough about it all yet to know what I'm looking for.
Perhaps it would be helpful to have some more talkative howtos for some of the typical configurations, that don't only list the options that are given but actually talks about why things are done the way they are? I've tried to avoid duplication of text in wiki, because if something changes it's difficult to update it everywhere, but in howtos I guess it wouldn't be too bad.
Or maybe the wiki could be restructured in some way to make it easier to follow. I think I'm the worst possible person to figure out anything like that, because I don't know what the difficult parts are. I'd think the Dovecot wiki is good if you know what you want to do and just want to know some specifics, but I guess it can be difficult to figure things out otherwise.
Does anyone know of any manuals/books that have been written that might introduce me to most of the stuff in dovecot?
A few people have talked about writing a Dovecot book and I've promised to help them, but no one's actually written one as far as I know.
So far, the list has been great, but once the "dsync" threads started popping up, I find there's even more I don't know about.
Features that aren't yet even fully implemented don't really have documentation for them.
participants (8)
-
Charles Marcus
-
Chris Hoogendyk
-
Giles Coochey
-
Jerry
-
Patrick Ben Koetter
-
Steve Campbell
-
Terry Carmen
-
Timo Sirainen