Good email client to use with Dovecot?
Hi all,
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(E-Mail-Programm)
:-)
Steffen Kaiser -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1
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On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:52:11 +0100 (CET) Steffen Kaiser skdovecot@smail.inf.fh-brs.de wrote:
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On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(E-Mail-Programm)
:-)
Thanks Steffen,
I installed Alpine and got it to work as a window to my Dovecot IMAP server, but I could only "import" one mailbox at a time, and as I mentioned earlier:
[slitt@mydesk ~]$ find /home/slitt/mail/Maildir -type d | wc -l 1254 [slitt@mydesk ~]$
These mailboxes are several levels deep, such as: .OLDFOLDERS.in.2012. I have a few questions:
How does one import *all* folders from the Dovecot server at once, without repeatedly typing in 192.168.100.2/ssl/user=slitt and all the rest of the process?
Is there a way of viewing my folder hierarchy hierarchically, including collapse and expand?
How does one manually expunge an email previously marked for deletion? I know it's possible because one config item is "*only* expunge manually." Is there a way of expunging ranges of emails?
How does one switch the sort order while in the folder list or the message list?
And most important, where can I find the best, most unambiguous Alpine documentation, that doesn't assume I know anything about Alpine?
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:52:11 +0100 (CET) Steffen Kaiser skdovecot@smail.inf.fh-brs.de wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(E-Mail-Programm)
:-)
I installed Alpine and got it to work as a window to my Dovecot IMAP server, but I could only "import" one mailbox at a time, and as I
actually, Alpine does not cache anything locally, hence, it does not import. You select one mailbox and work with it. Then change the mailbox using G or L.
- How does one import *all* folders from the Dovecot server at once, without repeatedly typing in 192.168.100.2/ssl/user=slitt and all the rest of the process?
You add a new collection via S L
- Is there a way of viewing my folder hierarchy hierarchically, including collapse and expand?
Not really. L gets you to the collection list, where you enter one hierarchie at a time.
- How does one manually expunge an email previously marked for deletion? I know it's possible because one config item is "*only* expunge manually." Is there a way of expunging ranges of emails?
(Al)Pine is merely a front-end for IMAP, see
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3501#section-6.4.3
eXpunge (X) key issues this command:
"The EXPUNGE command permanently removes all messages that have the \Deleted flag set from the currently selected mailbox. Before returning an OK to the client, an untagged EXPUNGE response is sent for each message that is removed."
Hence, all messages, that have the \Deleted flag, are expunged by X.
"expunge manually" means, that Pine does not expunge a mailbox on exit automatically.
In fact, instead of mark many messages as \Deleted, move them somewhere else.
Instead of using the Deleted keyword (tag, flag, ...), use another, possble self-created keyword, s. https://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config.html#keywords . Mark them, then
;k <keyword>ENTER adx
; - select k - by Keyword a - Apply (next command to all selected messages) d - mark as \Deleted x - eXpunge all messages marked as deleted
- How does one switch the sort order while in the folder list or the message list?
You mean $ in the message list? The folder list is fixed, as far as I know; maybe the global option https://www.washington.edu/alpine/tech-notes/config.html#folder-sort-rule effects this view. I usully use G to changes folders / mailboxes.
- And most important, where can I find the best, most unambiguous Alpine documentation, that doesn't assume I know anything about Alpine?
Hmm, http://roqet.org/pine.html Getting started with config http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/ All About PINE ;-) https://www.washington.edu/alpine/ https://www.washington.edu/pine/
Steffen Kaiser -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1
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Am 2016-11-17 08:48, schrieb Steve Litt:
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Most of the day I am using the Horde Webmailer IMP (www.horde.org), because I've got my web browser running the whole time anyway and I am too lazy to wait until Thunderbird launched.
Horde integrates IMAP very well and even has support for running and managing SIEVE-Scripts, PGP, S/MIME and other, fancy stuff. It is real a very well rounded, good for daily work mail client.
Contra is that you cannot change the theme at all, and if you wish to extend it, you might be off better with other stuff. But until you really reach this point you've got to walk some miles...
2nd preference then, as desktop client, is Thunderbird. Hard to beat IMAP support and if it cannot do a thing you want, there already might be an extension around somewhere...
What to avoid like the pest is Outlook. Microsoft crippled the IMAP support in it starting with version 2010 on purpose to promote their own server technology on many levels. Using IMAP with Outlook is no fun, so just don't do it and if you need Outlook, you are better off with Microsofts own tech stuff instead of IMAP.
On 17/11/2016 5:41 AM, Marc Stürmer wrote:
What to avoid like the pest is Outlook. Microsoft crippled the IMAP support in it starting with version 2010 on purpose to promote their own server technology on many levels. Using IMAP with Outlook is no fun, so just don't do it and if you need Outlook, you are better off with Microsofts own tech stuff instead of IMAP.
I use Thunderbird most of the time but I also have to use Outlook. I have noticed that IMAP support in Outlook 2016 is much better than in previous versions. It was really bad in Outlook 2010 and 2013, having to delete and reconfigure the IMAP account quite often. I haven't had any issues since upgrading to Outlook 2016.
On 17.11.2016 08:48, Steve Litt wrote:
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
I prefer Mozilla Thunderbird. It runs on Linux, macOS and Windows; works nicely with all sorts of IMAP servers; handles mailing lists well; and the multiple-identity-support (more than one sender address per IMAP account) is very important for me as well.
-Ralph
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:48:52 Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
I'm currently using Sylpheed, which is lightweight and fast, but relatively basic (e.g. no HTML support).
I keep meaning to try out Trojitá, which is apparently also very fast, as well as being very standards compliant. It uses an IMAP server for as much functionality as possible, so I suspect it would work well with Dovecot.
Other than that, if you want something new and shiny, try Geary. Personally I didn't like it much, as it implements a "conversation mode", making traditional in-line posting and so on more difficult.
I've tried Thunderbird, but it was too sluggish for my PC.
Andy
On 11/17/2016 08:48 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Plaintext or HTML mails? OpenPGP? S/MIME? Do you like to see your e-mails arranged into threads, or just sorted by some property (be that sender, date, or whatever)? What's your archiving system, many or few folders, flat or hierarchical? Do you work remote, how good's the connection to the IMAP server, do you need the capability to work on a local cache while the server cannot be reached ("detached IMAP", I've seen it called)?
I switched from tkRat (a.k.a. ratatosk) to Thunderbird when I had a need to do "detached IMAP" (and tkRat repeatedly trashed my entire INBOX when I tried). tkRat had interesting features (preselected primary archive folder per folder you're reading, "folders" that actually are views of a local database, minimalistic enough to bridge the distance with X11 instead of IMAP), but hasn't seen further development in ages.
With Thunderbird, there's a couple plugins I wouldn't want to part with. Lightning for the calendaring, Enigmail for OpenPGP support, Allow HTML Temp to stay with a default everything-as-plaintext setup but still being able to quickly grok the occasional "my answers below in red" reply, QuickFolders to have a bar of main archive folders I can drag&drop read e-mails into. Address Close Button occupies the "not *quite that* essential" rung.
Kind regards,
Jochen Bern Systemingenieur
Fon: +49 6151 9067-231 Fax: +49 6151 9067-290 E-Mail: jochen.bern@binect.de
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On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:11:45 +0100 Jochen Bern Jochen.Bern@binect.de wrote:
On 11/17/2016 08:48 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Plaintext or HTML mails?
I like the ability to see some sort of representation of the links in incoming HTML email. I would never send HTML email.
OpenPGP?
I don't use that today, but probably will in the future.
S/MIME?
Not necessary.
Do you like to see your e-mails arranged into threads, or just sorted by some property (be that sender, date, or whatever)?
I could live without the ability to thread. It seems to not work right, probably because of various senders' misuse. When I want to look at a thread, I usually just sort on subject.
What's your archiving system, many or few folders, flat or hierarchical?
Archiving is achieved in my Dovecot Maildir tree. For fast moving folders like INBOX and my local LUG (GoLUG), every year I move this year's messages to, for instance, OLDFOLDERS->GoLUG->2015. I have somewhere between 75 and 200 folders, and tend to go about 4 levels deep in the hierarchy, although most of my most active folders are 1 level down from the account itself. For backup, I use rsync to a backup server, and back up the whole Dovecot tree.
Do you work remote,
Sometimes. Through a pinhole in my firewall, via dynamic dns.
how good's the connection to the IMAP server,
Varies.
do you need the capability to work on a local cache while the server cannot be reached ("detached IMAP", I've seen it called)?
No. If I can't do email at a particular time, I'll go somewhere else where I can.
I switched from tkRat (a.k.a. ratatosk) to Thunderbird when I had a need to do "detached IMAP" (and tkRat repeatedly trashed my entire INBOX when I tried).
Did the corruption happen when you messed with it to try to work offline, or do you mean that usage during failure to connect caused corruption? Did it corrupt the IMAP you were trying to connect to, or just a cache?
tkRat had interesting features (preselected primary archive folder per folder you're reading, "folders" that actually are views of a local database, minimalistic enough to bridge the distance with X11 instead of IMAP), but hasn't seen further development in ages.
With Thunderbird,
Here's why I can't use Thunderbird:
[slitt@mydesk Maildir]$ find ~/mail/Maildir | wc -l 625262 [slitt@mydesk Maildir]$ find ~/mail/Maildir -type d | wc -l 1241 [slitt@mydesk Maildir]$
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
Really old, but works well with Dovecot, doesn't cache a lot, and probably would work real well is:
mulberry http://www.mulberrymail.com
Yes, it's dated, but still runs :)
On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:11:45 +0100 Jochen Bern Jochen.Bern@binect.de wrote:
On 11/17/2016 08:48 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Plaintext or HTML mails?
I like the ability to see some sort of representation of the links in incoming HTML email. I would never send HTML email.
OpenPGP?
I don't use that today, but probably will in the future.
S/MIME?
Not necessary.
Do you like to see your e-mails arranged into threads, or just sorted by some property (be that sender, date, or whatever)?
I could live without the ability to thread. It seems to not work right, probably because of various senders' misuse. When I want to look at a thread, I usually just sort on subject.
What's your archiving system, many or few folders, flat or hierarchical?
Archiving is achieved in my Dovecot Maildir tree. For fast moving folders like INBOX and my local LUG (GoLUG), every year I move this year's messages to, for instance, OLDFOLDERS->GoLUG->2015. I have somewhere between 75 and 200 folders, and tend to go about 4 levels deep in the hierarchy, although most of my most active folders are 1 level down from the account itself. For backup, I use rsync to a backup server, and back up the whole Dovecot tree.
Do you work remote,
Sometimes. Through a pinhole in my firewall, via dynamic dns.
how good's the connection to the IMAP server,
Varies.
do you need the capability to work on a local cache while the server cannot be reached ("detached IMAP", I've seen it called)?
No. If I can't do email at a particular time, I'll go somewhere else where I can.
I switched from tkRat (a.k.a. ratatosk) to Thunderbird when I had a need to do "detached IMAP" (and tkRat repeatedly trashed my entire INBOX when I tried).
Did the corruption happen when you messed with it to try to work offline, or do you mean that usage during failure to connect caused corruption? Did it corrupt the IMAP you were trying to connect to, or just a cache?
tkRat had interesting features (preselected primary archive folder per folder you're reading, "folders" that actually are views of a local database, minimalistic enough to bridge the distance with X11 instead of IMAP), but hasn't seen further development in ages.
With Thunderbird,
Here's why I can't use Thunderbird:
[slitt@mydesk Maildir]$ find ~/mail/Maildir | wc -l 625262 [slitt@mydesk Maildir]$ find ~/mail/Maildir -type d | wc -l 1241 [slitt@mydesk Maildir]$
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
-- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 214-642-9640 (c) E-Mail: larryrtx@gmail.com US Mail: 17716 Limpia Crk, Round Rock, TX 78664-7281
On 11/17/2016 04:58 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:11:45 +0100 Jochen Bern Jochen.Bern@binect.de wrote:
Plaintext or HTML mails?
I like the ability to see some sort of representation of the links in incoming HTML email. I would never send HTML email.
Not quite sure what you mean with "representation" of links ... in most cases of *human typed* HTML e-mails, there's a MIME multipart/alternative text/plain part where links' URLs appear as part of the text. However, generating the plaintext part is done by the *senders'* MUAs, your own merely decides over whether the URL is recognized as such and made *clickable*, rather than needing to be copy-pasted into your browser.
I switched from tkRat (a.k.a. ratatosk) to Thunderbird when I had a need to do "detached IMAP" (and tkRat repeatedly trashed my entire INBOX when I tried).
Did the corruption happen when you messed with it to try to work offline, or do you mean that usage during failure to connect caused corruption? Did it corrupt the IMAP you were trying to connect to, or just a cache?
It had official support for the setup (might even be where I saw the term "detached IMAP"). Never had a problem with it and the original (online) IMAP mode, but within ... a little less than a year IIRC after switching, I found the server-side INBOX *completely empty* thrice. (While being connected to the server, of course.)
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
Yeah, I can see that. I'm at about 1/6 of that, thanks to moving busy folders' back-years *off* the IMAP server and into Thunderbird-style "Local Folders" (which then can be copied to several places, as they supposedly do not *change* anymore). Takes TB a couple hours to resync when the cache has a problem - luckily, it does so in the background, and I tend to spend entire workdays sitting in just *one* place.
Note that TB *does* have controls to limit the local cache by age and message size, though. And that you can disable the local cache on a folder-by-folder basis.
Kind regards,
Jochen Bern Systemingenieur
Fon: +49 6151 9067-231 Fax: +49 6151 9067-290 E-Mail: jochen.bern@binect.de
On 11/17/2016 10:58 AM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
There are lots of knobs you can tweak to improve the situation, but the bottom line is - 1,000 folders (really?!?), 650,000 emails - well... this is going to be a problem for almost any client.
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On Fri, 18 Nov 2016, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 11/17/2016 10:58 AM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
There are lots of knobs you can tweak to improve the situation, but the bottom line is - 1,000 folders (really?!?), 650,000 emails - well... this is going to be a problem for almost any client.
That is actually the area, in which a non-caching client (pine, mutt) is playing well, if there is a stable connection to the server.
Some time ago, I read an article about the following setup:
- external mail server - no matter which
- local Dovecot and MTA - actually on some notebook or behind some slow link
- a cron job that performs a two-way sync with the external server, if the link available
- the user works locally only
Steffen Kaiser -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1
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On Fri, 18 Nov 2016, Steffen Kaiser wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2016, Tanstaafl wrote:
On 11/17/2016 10:58 AM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
There are lots of knobs you can tweak to improve the situation, but the bottom line is - 1,000 folders (really?!?), 650,000 emails - well... this is going to be a problem for almost any client.
That is actually the area, in which a non-caching client (pine, mutt) is playing well, if there is a stable connection to the server.
*** Exactly! Alpine has no problem with this size. I have only 313 folders with about 825000 files/emails. Every action is done on server (dovecot). Alpine reads only that data, which alpine needs. For email index, alpine reads only the headers of the emails, which should be displayed on the screen. For opened email, alpine reads the content, but not whole email, but only the part which should be displayed. The attachment is downloaded only if you want do display or save it.
Some time ago, I read an article about the following setup:
- external mail server - no matter which
- local Dovecot and MTA - actually on some notebook or behind some slow link
- a cron job that performs a two-way sync with the external server, if the link available
- the user works locally only
*** Exactly this way I synchronize mail gmail and other freemail accounts to my server with dovecot using offlineimap and then accessing remotely or localy (from ssh) using alpine.
Regards,
Robert Wolf.
On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 08:14:02 -0500 Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
On 11/17/2016 10:58 AM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
There are lots of knobs you can tweak to improve the situation, but the bottom line is - 1,000 folders (really?!?), 650,000 emails - well... this is going to be a problem for almost any client.
It wasn't a problem for Kmail, before the disastrous conversion to Kmail2. It wasn't a problem with Claws-Mail (I'm leaving Claws for non-technical reasons). My experimentation with Alpine indicates that, at the single folder level, it's not a problem for Alpine: Alpine can view a huge folder within a couple seconds the first time, instantly from then on. My (probably temporary) problem with Alpine is finding and committing to muscle memory tactics to replace my Kmail/Claws chops that sped my workflow. I might end up using Alpine for my daily emailing activities, and some other program to act as a sort of "file manager" for my IMAP server.
I think Steffen Kaiser's last email went a long way toward pointing me in the right direction in Alpine operations, especially his link to the IMAP specification. I'll be working with his suggestions over the next couple days.
And of course I still need to investigate Mutt.
Thanks everyone!
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
On Fri, 18 Nov 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
from then on. My (probably temporary) problem with Alpine is finding and committing to muscle memory tactics to replace my Kmail/Claws chops that sped my workflow. I might end up using Alpine for my daily emailing activities, and some other program to act as a sort of "file manager" for my IMAP server.
*** I would say, Alpine is something as vim. Until you use it daily, you think "how one can work with this", but as soon as you learn it, you find it perfect simple, fast but effective (as vim:-)).
And of course I still need to investigate Mutt.
*** I would tell here the Mutt vs Alpine is nearly similar to Vim vs Emacs:-D I am unable to use mutt, but I love alpine:-) And I work with vim and cannot remember all shortcuts of emacs. These sentences do not mean that emacs or mutt are worse than alpine and vim!:)
And of course, once you create your perfect alpine (or vim) configuration, you keep it for years (I use nearly the same vim, alpine and windowmaker config for about 15 years:-D).
Regards,
Robert Wolf.
On 11/18/2016 1:50 PM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 08:14:02 -0500 Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
On 11/17/2016 10:58 AM, Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com wrote:
I have over 620K emails in over 1000 folders. This turns Thunderbird into an all day affair, just to refresh its caches.
There are lots of knobs you can tweak to improve the situation, but the bottom line is - 1,000 folders (really?!?), 650,000 emails - well... this is going to be a problem for almost any client.
It wasn't a problem for Kmail, before the disastrous conversion to Kmail2. It wasn't a problem with Claws-Mail (I'm leaving Claws for non-technical reasons).
Let me clarify - I have no way of knowing if Thunderbird would choke due to the incredibly large number of folders. The number of emails is much less the problem.
I have maybe 50 folders, and maybe 200,000 total emails, and don't have any performance issues, unless (and even then they are minor and temporary) I'm setting up a new/fresh profile (takes a while for header downloads), or repairing a folder with a lot of messages.
I'm trying for the life of me to see a use case for anywhere close to 1,000 folders, and am failing. That would be a major problem just from the human side. How do you find anything?
But, to each their own, you must have a way of dealing with it that suits you.
On Nov 22, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
I'm trying for the life of me to see a use case for anywhere close to 1,000 folders, and am failing. That would be a major problem just from the human side. How do you find anything?
I can see it, though I think it’s excessive.
List Mail Dovecot 2011-06 2011-07 2011-08 … 2016-11 Postfix 2001-09 2001-10 … 2016-11
(repeat for a hundred lists. Add folders for each friend or family member. Add folders for ever domain that sends mail. It’s certainly possible, and someone might even convince themselves it’s ‘organized’.)
I keep a separate ARCHIVE/YYYY-MM/ namespace for old mail and move the mail on the first of the month. That way most clients don't load it, but I can get to them. I keep one box per mailing list and other "things".
So, yes, I can see multi-hundreds of folders.
thebighonker.lerctr.org /home/ler/MAIL-ARCHIVE $ find . -type d | grep -v .imap |wc -l 1958 thebighonker.lerctr.org /home/ler/MAIL-ARCHIVE $
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:35 AM, @lbutlr kremels@kreme.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
I'm trying for the life of me to see a use case for anywhere close to 1,000 folders, and am failing. That would be a major problem just from the human side. How do you find anything?
I can see it, though I think it’s excessive.
List Mail Dovecot 2011-06 2011-07 2011-08 … 2016-11 Postfix 2001-09 2001-10 … 2016-11
(repeat for a hundred lists. Add folders for each friend or family member. Add folders for ever domain that sends mail. It’s certainly possible, and someone might even convince themselves it’s ‘organized’.)
-- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 214-642-9640 (c) E-Mail: larryrtx@gmail.com US Mail: 17716 Limpia Crk, Round Rock, TX 78664-7281
On Nov 22, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Larry Rosenman larryrtx@gmail.com wrote:
I keep a separate ARCHIVE/YYYY-MM/ namespace for old mail and move the mail on the first of the month. That way most clients don't load it, but I can get to them. I keep one box per mailing list and other "things”.
WhenI did that I would combine every year into a single year folder and only keep the last 3-4 months in separate folders.
On 11/22/2016 11:05 AM, Larry Rosenman larryrtx@gmail.com wrote:
I keep a separate ARCHIVE/YYYY-MM/ namespace for old mail and move the mail on the first of the month. That way most clients don't load it, but I can get to them. I keep one box per mailing list and other "things".
I keep a single 'Old Mail' folder, where I file anything that I want to keep but doesn't fit into any of my 20 or 30 specific folders I've created.
So, yes, I can see multi-hundreds of folders.
Again, I can't, it is much easier, in my opinion, to only have to search a single folder, rather than try to figure out which folder something is more likely to be in - but whatever works for you...
On 11/22/2016 10:35 AM, @lbutlr kremels@kreme.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
I'm trying for the life of me to see a use case for anywhere close to 1,000 folders, and am failing. That would be a major problem just from the human side. How do you find anything?
I can see it, though I think it’s excessive.
List Mail Dovecot 2011-06 2011-07 2011-08
<snip>
Like I said, I simply don't see it. There is simply zero reason to split things up like this. It is trivial to limit your view to just what you want with filters or just plain sorting (by date in this case).
Just not enough bang for the buck. Again, this is jut my opinion, if this makes someone else feel better/more organized or whatever, obviously they are free to have as many folders as they want.
Anyone using the default (TB) approach /Archive/YYYY-MM will eventually meet the problem of having too many folders and a slow service. The alternative, for the user, is to write their own filters. From the server side, it would be useful if dovecot would filter certain e-mails automatically. For example, it could move any e-mail from "dovecot@dovecot.org" into /Lists/dovecot@dovecot_org/.
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Tanstaafl <'tanstaafl@libertytrek.org'> wrote: On 11/22/2016 10:35 AM, @lbutlr kremels@kreme.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
I'm trying for the life of me to see a use case for anywhere close to 1,000 folders, and am failing. That would be a major problem just from the human side. How do you find anything?
I can see it, though I think it’s excessive.
List Mail Dovecot 2011-06 2011-07 2011-08
<snip>
Like I said, I simply don't see it. There is simply zero reason to split things up like this. It is trivial to limit your view to just what you want with filters or just plain sorting (by date in this case).
Just not enough bang for the buck. Again, this is jut my opinion, if this makes someone else feel better/more organized or whatever, obviously they are free to have as many folders as they want.
On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 09:48:11 -0500 Tanstaafl tanstaafl@libertytrek.org wrote:
I'm trying for the life of me to see a use case for anywhere close to 1,000 folders, and am failing. That would be a major problem just from the human side. How do you find anything?
Hierarchy/drilldown.
I'm on what, maybe 70 mailing lists like this one. Many I've been on for more than a decade, so I have an OLDFOLDERS folder containing subfolders for each mailing list, each of which have their own subfolder by year.
The three email clients I ever used: Eudora (on Windows 98), Kmail and Claws-Mail had a collapsible outline view of all my folders and subfolders, making drilldown trivial. They all also had recursive searches. So 90% of the time, I just went to the current folder for the mailing list. The rest of the time, I used drilldown and recursive search. In less than 1% of cases was I unable to find an email I knew existed.
I imagine if I'd started with Alpine, I might have had fewer folders with more messages. But given the ease my past email clients had with viewing my folders as a drillable hierarchy, doing it the way I did it was trivial. And from a human point of view, the best way to organize things is in a hierarchy, like a room of file cabinets, a Linux filesystem, or a computer menu.
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
On 11/16/2016 11:48 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
Hi all,
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Thanks,
SteveT
Thunderbird on the Desktop and K9 on Android and roundcube for webmail.
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
lists@lazygranch.com skrev den 2016-11-18 03:07:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
lets see if dovecot will be webmail ng someday
I don't like Thunderbird.
sadly
For one thing, it is in caretaker status.
what ?
Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future."
do you have references for this somewhere ?
I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube
unpatched is allways good, problems come when non default and mostly custom plugins is not tested, keep plain roundcube should not be a problem more then a claws client that is not patched
back when I was using a hosting company.
nothing happended since then ?
Webmail just increases your attack surface.
so what is the solution ?, going offline ?
Claws is an active project.
I became roundcube free when I set up my own mail server.
I simply use an email client rather than a browser. Browsers can leak.
Comments about the retired TB: https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/
Practically what this means is that in 2016, Thunderbird will finally be able to accept donations from users directed toward the update and maintenance of Thunderbird. In the long run, Thunderbird needs to rely on our users for support, and not expect to be subsidized by revenue from Firefox. We welcome this help from the Mozilla Foundation in moving toward our goal of developing independent sources of income for Thunderbird.
In the technical part of that post, Mitchell reiterated that Mozilla needs to be laser-focused on Firefox, and that the burden this places on Thunderbird (as well as the burden that Thunderbird places on Firefox) is leading to unacceptable outcomes for both projects. The most immediate need is for the Thunderbird release infrastructure to be independent of that used by Firefox, and Mozilla has offered to help. In the long-term, there will be additional technical separation between Firefox and Thunderbird as a continuation of a process that has been ongoing for the last three years.
Original Message From: Benny Pedersen Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 6:36 PM To: dovecot@dovecot.org Reply To: Dovecot Mailing List Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
lists@lazygranch.com skrev den 2016-11-18 03:07:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
lets see if dovecot will be webmail ng someday
I don't like Thunderbird.
sadly
For one thing, it is in caretaker status.
what ?
Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future."
do you have references for this somewhere ?
I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube
unpatched is allways good, problems come when non default and mostly custom plugins is not tested, keep plain roundcube should not be a problem more then a claws client that is not patched
back when I was using a hosting company.
nothing happended since then ?
Webmail just increases your attack surface.
so what is the solution ?, going offline ?
On 11/17/2016 11:03 PM, lists@lazygranch.com lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
Comments about the retired TB: https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/
Practically what this means is that in 2016, Thunderbird will finally be able to accept donations from users directed toward the update and maintenance of Thunderbird. In the long run, Thunderbird needs to rely on our users for support, and not expect to be subsidized by revenue from Firefox. We welcome this help from the Mozilla Foundation in moving toward our goal of developing independent sources of income for Thunderbird.
The interesting thing is that Thunderbird has seen a lot more bug fixes and improvements since Mozilla 'abandoned' development of it than it ever saw under direct Mozilla 'care'.
There are some uncomfortable pain points coming up (deprecation of XUL/XPCOM being the main ones), but I'm confident Thunderbird will emerge victorious, once again.
:)
On 18/11/2016 14:19, Tanstaafl wrote:
Comments about the retired TB:
As far as webmail being the future - imho - I am getting away from it, and that is why dovecot is worth investigating as port to replace the imap program supplied with my server OS.
As far as the blog entry above - that is dated 9 december 2015, and nothing newer.
Since someone also commented "more fixes than before" - I guess Thunderbird is "blogging" elsewhere - hint to where might be good in this thread.
It has certainly been an interesting read. Maybe I should use MUTT - as I have been a happy vi user for nearly 38 years (even coded it a bit in the pre-curses days - to add a new terminal ;) - ah memories :)
On 19/11/2016 16:18, Michael Felt wrote:
On 18/11/2016 14:19, Tanstaafl wrote:
Comments about the retired TB:
As far as webmail being the future - imho - I am getting away from it, and that is why dovecot is worth investigating as port to replace the imap program supplied with my server OS.
As far as the blog entry above - that is dated 9 december 2015, and nothing newer. An older blog is, imho, more accurate about the relationship and hence status on the relationship of Mozilla as an 'owner' aka 'legal home' and Thunderbird as an 'owned project' - see
QUOTE from blog: https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/12/03/thunderbird-update/
I’ve seen some characterize this as Mozilla “dropping” Thunderbird. This is not accurate. We are going to disentangle the technical infrastructure. We are going to assist the Thunderbird community. This includes working with organizations that want to invest in Thunderbird, several of which have stepped forward already. Mozilla Foundation will serve as a fiscal sponsor for Thunderbird donations during this time.
I also noted that we should look at whether Mozilla remains the best organizational and legal home for Thunderbird. This is a separate question from the technical infrastructure. This question is much more wide open. I don’t know what the answer will be. It could be that Mozilla remains the best home, based on history, affiliation and shared community. It could also be that a home geared to open source projects of Thunderbird’s size and scope is better suited. I can imagine either being the case. We have decided to separate the technical infrastructure and to explore what is best for Thunderbird and for the Mozilla project as a whole.
These discussions are at a very early stage. Finding the right solution requires some effort. This is Mozilla focusing on a more forward looking path, one aimed at longer term stability rather than continuing the status quo.
ENDQUOTE
Since someone also commented "more fixes than before" - I guess Thunderbird is "blogging" elsewhere - hint to where might be good in this thread.
It has certainly been an interesting read. Maybe I should use MUTT - as I have been a happy vi user for nearly 38 years (even coded it a bit in the pre-curses days - to add a new terminal ;) - ah memories :)
TB is the closest thing to a functional Outlook replacement for office deployment. I have seen UN staff so distressed by IBM Lotus Notes that would have given someone else's left arm to have TB instead. I have mutt as a lifeboat, but is not good enough for daily use in office.
On Mozilla not willing to spend on TB, I think it is a very good thing. I would rather see TB on github with a donation button than see it crippled with Firefox-like spyware.
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Michael Felt <'michael@felt.demon.nl'> wrote: These discussions are at a very early stage. Finding the right solution requires some effort. This is Mozilla focusing on a more forward looking path, one aimed at longer term stability rather than continuing the status quo.
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
since years mutt, 'cause it really sucks. I tried TB or claws, evolution, opera but always returned to mutt.
Am 18. November 2016 06:31:43 MEZ, schrieb Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
So does mutt suck or not?
Original Message From: Andreas Kalex Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:06 PM To: Dovecot Mailing List Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
since years mutt, 'cause it really sucks. I tried TB or claws, evolution, opera but always returned to mutt.
Am 18. November 2016 06:31:43 MEZ, schrieb Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
Look up "roundcube", really straight forward configuration, once installed type in the IP of your server publishing it on a web browser and it will walk you through configuring it
On 18 Nov 2016 07:16, lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
So does mutt suck or not?
Original Message From: Andreas Kalex Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:06 PM To: Dovecot Mailing List Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
since years mutt, 'cause it really sucks. I tried TB or claws, evolution, opera but always returned to mutt.
Am 18. November 2016 06:31:43 MEZ, schrieb Steve Litt < slitt@troubleshooters.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-8905/Roundcube.html
Original Message From: robert k Wild Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:22 PM To: lists@lazygranch.com Reply To: Dovecot Mailing List Cc: Andreas Kalex; dovecot@dovecot.org Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
Look up "roundcube", really straight forward configuration, once installed type in the IP of your server publishing it on a web browser and it will walk you through configuring it
On 18 Nov 2016 07:16, lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
So does mutt suck or not?
Original Message From: Andreas Kalex Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:06 PM To: Dovecot Mailing List Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
since years mutt, 'cause it really sucks. I tried TB or claws, evolution, opera but always returned to mutt.
Am 18. November 2016 06:31:43 MEZ, schrieb Steve Litt < slitt@troubleshooters.com>:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
- lists@lazygranch.com lists@lazygranch.com:
So does mutt suck or not?
If you work with vi and like it, chances are you will also like mutt.
Personally I *love* mutt! No extra fat. Always on the spot. It is "liberal in what it receives and conservative in how it sends". Since it is command line program, I can run it almost everywhere.
It supports local mailboxes, SMTP, POP and IMAP as well as S/MIME and PGP. You can highly customize it, if you want to with rules per folder, per sender adress etc. pp.
Just like vi it takes a while until you have internalized the (invisible) interface. Once you've moved beyond that point you will experience an enormous boost in efficency.
If you want to, ping me offline and I will share my mutt config. That should make it easier to start using it.
p@rick
Original Message From: Andreas Kalex Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:06 PM To: Dovecot Mailing List Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
since years mutt, 'cause it really sucks. I tried TB or claws, evolution, opera but always returned to mutt.
Am 18. November 2016 06:31:43 MEZ, schrieb Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
-- [*] sys4 AG
https://sys4.de, +49 (89) 30 90 46 64 Schleißheimer Straße 26/MG,80333 München
Sitz der Gesellschaft: München, Amtsgericht München: HRB 199263 Vorstand: Patrick Ben Koetter, Marc Schiffbauer Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Florian Kirstein
I like vi (really vim), but I'm OK with Claws. I do most of my email on a BlackBerry. (No, really.)
Original Message From: Patrick Ben Koetter Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 12:15 AM To: dovecot@dovecot.org Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
- lists@lazygranch.com lists@lazygranch.com:
So does mutt suck or not?
If you work with vi and like it, chances are you will also like mutt.
Personally I *love* mutt! No extra fat. Always on the spot. It is "liberal in what it receives and conservative in how it sends". Since it is command line program, I can run it almost everywhere.
It supports local mailboxes, SMTP, POP and IMAP as well as S/MIME and PGP. You can highly customize it, if you want to with rules per folder, per sender adress etc. pp.
Just like vi it takes a while until you have internalized the (invisible) interface. Once you've moved beyond that point you will experience an enormous boost in efficency.
If you want to, ping me offline and I will share my mutt config. That should make it easier to start using it.
p@rick
Original Message From: Andreas Kalex Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:06 PM To: Dovecot Mailing List Subject: Re: Good email client to use with Dovecot?
since years mutt, 'cause it really sucks. I tried TB or claws, evolution, opera but always returned to mutt.
Am 18. November 2016 06:31:43 MEZ, schrieb Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:07:15 -0800 lists@lazygranch.com wrote:
FWIW, I use claws, which is about the only one not mentioned.
I don't like Thunderbird. For one thing, it is in caretaker status. Mozilla believes Web based mail is the "future." I rather not run roundcube, given I got hacked via an unpatched roundcube back when I was using a hosting company. Webmail just increases your attack surface.
Thanks.
My reason for exploring Alpine is I'm moving away from Claws, for non-technical reasons I won't burden this list with.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
-- [*] sys4 AG
https://sys4.de, +49 (89) 30 90 46 64 Schleißheimer Straße 26/MG,80333 München
Sitz der Gesellschaft: München, Amtsgericht München: HRB 199263 Vorstand: Patrick Ben Koetter, Marc Schiffbauer Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Florian Kirstein
Steve Litt slitt@troubleshooters.com writes:
Hi all,
When I use an email client, its purpose is as a window into my Dovecot IMAP, and as a mechanism to reply to and send emails. I don't do filtering or calendaring on my email client (filtering via procmail direct to Dovecot).
What email clients are all of you using to look at your IMAP email?
Someone's got to mention Emacs and Gnus. I suppose it's unlikely anyone's going to pick up Emacs just to use the mail client, but it's a great mail client. Grossly configurable, and handles IMAP accounts well.
participants (20)
-
＠lbutlr
-
Andreas Kalex
-
Andrew Beverley
-
Benny Pedersen
-
Eric Abrahamsen
-
Jochen Bern
-
Larry Rosenman
-
lists＠lazygranch.com
-
Marc Stürmer
-
Michael A. Peters
-
Michael Felt
-
Oscar del Rio
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Patrick Ben Koetter
-
Ralph Seichter
-
robert k Wild
-
Robert Wolf
-
Ruga
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Steffen Kaiser
-
Steve Litt
-
Tanstaafl