Hello,
I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.
To mitigate the problem, I asked users to keep the inbox clear of subfolders. However, a user keeps ignoring the local policy while also lamenting the mail is slow.
Please write instructions to enforce this local policy in dovecot, so that when users try to create an inbox subfolder, dovecot refuses the action.
Thank you
On Thu, 2025-09-18 at 09:19 +0000, Rupert Gallagher via dovecot wrote:
Hello,
I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.
Does seem a bit odd to attempt to limit/cripple the server when the flaw resides entirely with the client.
I suggest instead that working to improve TB would be better approach. Engaging with the TB folks would probably be a good idea too.
There may be things you can do on the TB side (make sure to use maildir for local storage - remove unnneeded offline folders etc). It is also possible that reducing the number of sub folders could make TB worse, since then its index file would get even larger, have more "holes" and need manual "compressing" more frequently. I found these index files got really really enormous - far larger than they should, likely as they left holes and tried to keep the file mostly append only.
There were mumbings a long time ago about them auto "compressing" their index file. Still, when I used TB I found I had to periodically stop TB - delete all index files (gigantic GB)- start TB - wait a few minutes and things work better. A work around for poor design for sure but it helped tb work a little faster.
TB is just not a terribly good client inho.
Alternatvely, switch clients to evolution (or something else) which works far better than tb. If some of your users are on mswin, there is outlook I guess.
Either way, it really sounds like the better path for this problem is be to move on from TB or at least focus your energy on TB not the imap server.
good luck - let us know how things work out.
-- Gene
On Thu, 2025-09-18 at 09:19 +0000, Rupert Gallagher via dovecot wrote:
Hello,
I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with
mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.Does seem a bit odd to attempt to limit/cripple the server when the flaw resides entirely with the client. I suggest instead that working to improve TB would be better approach. Engaging with the TB folks would probably be a good idea too. There may be things you can do on the TB side (make sure to use maildir for local storage - remove unnneeded offline folders etc). It is also possible that reducing the number of sub folders could make TB worse, since then its index file would get even larger, have more "holes" and need manual "compressing" more frequently. I found these index files got really really enormous - far larger than they should, likely as they left holes and tried to keep the file mostly append only. There were mumbings a long time ago about them auto "compressing" their index file. Still, when I used TB I found I had to periodically stop TB - delete all index files (gigantic GB)- start TB - wait a few minutes and things work better. A work around for poor design for sure but it helped tb work a little faster. TB is just not a terribly good client inho. Alternatvely, switch clients to evolution (or something else) which works far better than tb. If some of your users are on mswin, there is outlook I guess. Either way, it really sounds like the better path for this problem is be to move on from TB or at least focus your energy on TB not the imap server. good luck - let us know how things work out.
--
Gene
Those alternatives are not applicabile.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/18/25 14:29, Genes Lists wrote:
On Thu, 2025-09-18 at 09:19 +0000, Rupert Gallagher via dovecot wrote:
Hello,
I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.
Does seem a bit odd to attempt to limit/cripple the server when the flaw resides entirely with the client.
I suggest instead that working to improve TB would be better approach. Engaging with the TB folks would probably be a good idea too.
There may be things you can do on the TB side (make sure to use maildir for local storage - remove unnneeded offline folders etc). It is also possible that reducing the number of sub folders could make TB worse, since then its index file would get even larger, have more "holes" and need manual "compressing" more frequently. I found these index files got really really enormous - far larger than they should, likely as they left holes and tried to keep the file mostly append only.
There were mumbings a long time ago about them auto "compressing" their index file. Still, when I used TB I found I had to periodically stop TB - delete all index files (gigantic GB)- start TB - wait a few minutes and things work better. A work around for poor design for sure but it helped tb work a little faster.
TB is just not a terribly good client inho.
Alternatvely, switch clients to evolution (or something else) which works far better than tb. If some of your users are on mswin, there is outlook I guess.
Either way, it really sounds like the better path for this problem is be to move on from TB or at least focus your energy on TB not the imap server.
good luck - let us know how things work out.
--
Gene
Those alternatives are not applicabile.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/18/25 14:29, Genes Lists <lists@sapience.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2025-09-18 at 09:19 +0000, Rupert Gallagher via dovecot wrote:
Hello,
I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with
mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.
Does seem a bit odd to attempt to limit/cripple the server when the flaw
resides entirely with the client.
I suggest instead that working to improve TB would be better approach.
Engaging with the TB folks would probably be a good idea too.
There may be things you can do on the TB side (make sure to use maildir
for local storage - remove unnneeded offline folders etc). It is also
possible that reducing the number of sub folders could make TB worse,
since then its index file would get even larger, have more "holes" and
need manual "compressing" more frequently. I found these index files
got really really enormous - far larger than they should, likely as they
left holes and tried to keep the file mostly append only.
There were mumbings a long time ago about them auto "compressing" their
index file. Still, when I used TB I found I had to periodically stop TB
- delete all index files (gigantic GB)- start TB - wait a few minutes
and things work better. A work around for poor design for sure but it
helped tb work a little faster.
TB is just not a terribly good client inho.
Alternatvely, switch clients to evolution (or something else) which
works far better than tb. If some of your users are on mswin, there is
outlook I guess.
Either way, it really sounds like the better path for this problem is be
to move on from TB or at least focus your energy on TB not the imap
server.
good luck - let us know how things work out.--
Gene"Rupert" == Rupert Gallagher via dovecot <dovecot@dovecot.org> writes:
Those alternatives are not applicabile.
Are your users running the latest version of ThunderBird?
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/18/25 14:29, Genes Lists <lists@sapience.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2025-09-18 at 09:19 +0000, Rupert Gallagher via dovecot wrote:
Hello, I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.
Does seem a bit odd to attempt to limit/cripple the server when the flaw resides entirely with the client. I suggest instead that working to improve TB would be better approach. Engaging with the TB folks would probably be a good idea too. There may be things you can do on the TB side (make sure to use maildir for local storage - remove unnneeded offline folders etc). It is also possible that reducing the number of sub folders could make TB worse, since then its index file would get even larger, have more "holes" and need manual "compressing" more frequently. I found these index files got really really enormous - far larger than they should, likely as they left holes and tried to keep the file mostly append only. There were mumbings a long time ago about them auto "compressing" their index file. Still, when I used TB I found I had to periodically stop TB - delete all index files (gigantic GB)- start TB - wait a few minutes and things work better. A work around for poor design for sure but it helped tb work a little faster. TB is just not a terribly good client inho. Alternatvely, switch clients to evolution (or something else) which works far better than tb. If some of your users are on mswin, there is outlook I guess. Either way, it really sounds like the better path for this problem is be to move on from TB or at least focus your energy on TB not the imap server. good luck - let us know how things work out.
--
Gene
dovecot mailing list -- dovecot@dovecot.org To unsubscribe send an email to dovecot-leave@dovecot.org
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/18/25 17:43, John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
"Rupert" == Rupert Gallagher via dovecot <dovecot@dovecot.org> writes:
Those alternatives are not applicabile.
Are your users running the latest version of ThunderBird?
Yes.
fwiw, i find that lots (>4k) of sub-groups works perfectly well here, using gnus as my primary ua, mutt and k9 as secondaries.
(each mailing list and each vendor is in its own group.)
-JimC
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: https://jhcloos.com/0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6.asc
oh boy oh boy, said the star wars muppet...
I am with the user. He uses windows with tb.
Each time tb starts, it hangs for 20min at least. Why oh why? TB's activity window lists folders as they are deleted. Do not know why, but it is doing it.
Finally, I move all inbox subfolders into the archive. Now TB refuses to delete the empty inbox subfolders. I look into the account settings, see the account is not using mbox. I open the windows folder and find two inbox folders.
To clear the mess, I remove the account from TB, close TB, delete those folders in windows, reopen TB, add the account, change mailfolder into mbox, close and reopen TB.
At this point, the account is rebuilding the index, but is taking a long time still. TB's activity index shows that it is deleting folders again, all by itself.
I think I need to rebuild dovecot's index for this user.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/18/25 11:19, Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I note the following problem. If the inbox holds many subfolders with mail, thunderbird spends a lot of time on startup.
To mitigate the problem, I asked users to keep the inbox clear of subfolders. However, a user keeps ignoring the local policy while also lamenting the mail is slow.
Please write instructions to enforce this local policy in dovecot, so that when users try to create an inbox subfolder, dovecot refuses the action.
Thank you
"Rupert" == Rupert Gallagher via dovecot <dovecot@dovecot.org> writes:
oh boy oh boy, said the star wars muppet... I am with the user. He uses windows with tb.
Interesting. But this looks to be more and more a TB issue.
Each time tb starts, it hangs for 20min at least. Why oh why? TB's activity window lists folders as they are deleted. Do not know why, but it is doing it.
Can you turn on debugging?
Finally, I move all inbox subfolders into the archive. Now TB refuses to delete the empty inbox subfolders. I look into the account settings, see the account is not using mbox. I open the windows folder and find two inbox folders.
Wait, how is TB configured? I assume he's using IMAP to get their emails? Are they downloading all th eemails to the local machine?
To clear the mess, I remove the account from TB, close TB, delete those folders in windows, reopen TB, add the account, change mailfolder into mbox, close and reopen TB.
Maybe you need to delete TB completely, then re-install it. *shrug* I never use TB so I don't really have much to offer here.
At this point, the account is rebuilding the index, but is taking a long time still. TB's activity index shows that it is deleting folders again, all by itself.
So it's rebuilding a _local_ index on the PC?
I think I need to rebuild dovecot's index for this user.
Maybe... but maybe there's a TB setting which can fix this too. Have you looked at this thread?
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1424836
And how much email does this user have in his IMAP account where you're running his mail spool? Does that server show any performance problems when the user is re-indexing their emails?
Cheers, John
On 19/09/2025 22:38, John Stoffel via dovecot wrote:
"Rupert" == Rupert Gallagher via dovecot<dovecot@dovecot.org> writes: oh boy oh boy, said the star wars muppet... I am with the user. He uses windows with tb. Interesting. But this looks to be more and more a TB issue.
Each time tb starts, it hangs for 20min at least. Why oh why? TB's activity window lists folders as they are deleted. Do not know why, but it is doing it. Can you turn on debugging?
Finally, I move all inbox subfolders into the archive. Now TB refuses to delete the empty inbox subfolders. I look into the account settings, see the account is not using mbox. I open the windows folder and find two inbox folders. Wait, how is TB configured? I assume he's using IMAP to get their emails? Are they downloading all th eemails to the local machine?
To clear the mess, I remove the account from TB, close TB, delete those folders in windows, reopen TB, add the account, change mailfolder into mbox, close and reopen TB. Maybe you need to delete TB completely, then re-install it. *shrug* I never use TB so I don't really have much to offer here. Just create a new profile. Reinstalling risks picking up the old profile which won't get you anywhere.
At this point, the account is rebuilding the index, but is taking a long time still. TB's activity index shows that it is deleting folders again, all by itself. So it's rebuilding a _local_ index on the PC?
I think I need to rebuild dovecot's index for this user. Maybe... but maybe there's a TB setting which can fix this too. Have you looked at this thread?
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1424836And how much email does this user have in his IMAP account where you're running his mail spool? Does that server show any performance problems when the user is re-indexing their emails?
Cheers, John
dovecot mailing list --dovecot@dovecot.org To unsubscribe send an email todovecot-leave@dovecot.org
On 19/09/2025 22:38, John Stoffel via dovecot wrote:
"Rupert" == Rupert Gallagher via dovecot [1]<dovecot@dovecot.org> writes:
oh boy oh boy, said the star wars muppet... I am with the user. He uses windows with tb.
Interesting. But this looks to be more and more a TB issue.
Each time tb starts, it hangs for 20min at least. Why oh why? TB's activity window lists folders as they are deleted. Do not know why, but it is doing it.
Can you turn on debugging?
Finally, I move all inbox subfolders into the archive. Now TB refuses to delete the empty inbox subfolders. I look into the account settings, see the account is not using mbox. I open the windows folder and find two inbox folders.
Wait, how is TB configured? I assume he's using IMAP to get their emails? Are they downloading all th eemails to the local machine?
To clear the mess, I remove the account from TB, close TB, delete those folders in windows, reopen TB, add the account, change mailfolder into mbox, close and reopen TB.
Maybe you need to delete TB completely, then re-install it. *shrug* I never use TB so I don't really have much to offer here.
Just create a new profile. Reinstalling risks picking up the old profile which won't get you anywhere.
At this point, the account is rebuilding the index, but is taking a long time still. TB's activity index shows that it is deleting folders again, all by itself.
So it's rebuilding a _local_ index on the PC?
I think I need to rebuild dovecot's index for this user.
Maybe... but maybe there's a TB setting which can fix this too. Have you looked at this thread?
[2]https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1424836And how much email does this user have in his IMAP account where you're running his mail spool? Does that server show any performance problems when the user is re-indexing their emails?
Cheers, John
dovecot mailing list -- [3]dovecot@dovecot.org To unsubscribe send an email to [4]dovecot-leave@dovecot.org
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I am still looking into it. TB is the latest version without extensions. What I see in TB's registry are lines like
- deleted the content of folder X
followed by
- the operation on X failed. The server responded: mailbox X does not exist.
When I open TB, I see folder X, then it disappears.
Other users are clear. This is the only user where the problem occurs, and he really likes renaming folders, deleting them and moving them around a lot.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/20/25 19:02, Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com> wrote:
I am still looking into it. TB is the latest version without extensions. What I see in TB's registry are lines like
- deleted the content of folder X
followed by
- the operation on X failed. The server responded: mailbox X does not exist.
Have you tried to add
https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.1/core/summaries/settings.html#imap_client_worka...
imap_client_workarounds { tb-extra-mailbox-sep = yes }
to see if it helps?
On 20/09/2025 20:06 EEST Rupert Gallagher via dovecot <dovecot@dovecot.org> wrote:
When I open TB, I see folder X, then it disappears.
Other users are clear. This is the only user where the problem occurs, and he really likes renaming folders, deleting them and moving them around a lot.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/20/25 19:02, Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com> wrote:
I am still looking into it. TB is the latest version without extensions. What I see in TB's registry are lines like
- deleted the content of folder X
followed by
- the operation on X failed. The server responded: mailbox X does not exist.
dovecot mailing list -- dovecot@dovecot.org To unsubscribe send an email to dovecot-leave@dovecot.org
Unknown option. Dovecot was configured and compiled without mbox. The server uses mailfolder.
TB client uses mbox for local db, because TB's mailfolder is bugged.
Server and client internal db are independent.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/20/25 19:24, Aki Tuomi <aki.tuomi@open-xchange.com> wrote:
Have you tried to add
https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.1/core/summaries/settings.html#imap_client_worka...
imap_client_workarounds { tb-extra-mailbox-sep = yes }
to see if it helps?
On 20/09/2025 20:06 EEST Rupert Gallagher via dovecot <dovecot@dovecot.org> wrote:
When I open TB, I see folder X, then it disappears.
Other users are clear. This is the only user where the problem occurs, and he really likes renaming folders, deleting them and moving them around a lot.
-------- Original Message -------- On 9/20/25 19:02, Rupert Gallagher <ruga@protonmail.com> wrote:
I am still looking into it. TB is the latest version without extensions. What I see in TB's registry are lines like
- deleted the content of folder X
followed by
- the operation on X failed. The server responded: mailbox X does not exist.
dovecot mailing list -- dovecot@dovecot.org To unsubscribe send an email to dovecot-leave@dovecot.org
participants (6)
-
Aki Tuomi
-
Genes Lists
-
James Cloos
-
John Stoffel
-
Nick Howitt
-
Rupert Gallagher