[Dovecot] Linux should be as easy as Windows
From a "Standards" thread I saw this :
"Linux should be as easy as Windows"I would like to point out that this is a thinking problem. A shift in thinking is required.
That should say :
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"In this way we allow someone running BSD, Solaris or some port of Debian to an old Dec AlphaServer will have the same level of functionality provided standards are adhered to. Once programmers begin to see everything in the light of Linux then we can also kiss goodbye the opportunity for portability to other OS types.
Dennis
On 18/08/2010 15:41, Dennis Clarke wrote:
From a "Standards" thread I saw this :
"Linux should be as easy as Windows"I would like to point out that this is a thinking problem. A shift in thinking is required.
That should say :
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"In this way we allow someone running BSD, Solaris or some port of Debian to an old Dec AlphaServer will have the same level of functionality provided standards are adhered to. Once programmers begin to see everything in the light of Linux then we can also kiss goodbye the opportunity for portability to other OS types.
Dennis
I think everything defined as "easy" is not (random order):
- Light
- Scalable
- Secure
- Portable
- Customizable
-- Simone Caruso IT Consultant p.iva: 03045250838
[ sorry for the slight OT ]
On 18/08/2010 15:41, Dennis Clarke wrote:
From a "Standards" thread I saw this :
"Linux should be as easy as Windows"I would like to point out that this is a thinking problem. A shift in thinking is required.
That should say :
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"In this way we allow someone running BSD, Solaris or some port of Debian to an old Dec AlphaServer will have the same level of functionality provided standards are adhered to. Once programmers begin to see everything in the light of Linux then we can also kiss goodbye the opportunity for portability to other OS types.
Dennis
I think everything defined as "easy" is not (random order):
- Light
Sometimes things are not and that is okay. GNOME is not XFCE or Fluxbox but we have freedom to choose either. Perhaps by "light" you mean you don't need 32G of memory and a dual socket 12-core Opteron 6100 series machine with some hot NVidia graphics card and 10Gb ethernet to just *barely* install Windows 8. :-)
- Scalable
Nice if possible. Some things just don't scale well. A P-vs-NP type problem.
- Secure
Love dovecot for this reason.
- Portable
Totally. This is what open standards are supposed to be all about. Also why assembly tweaks to architecture locked modules should be avoided whereever possible. Sometimes there is no way out.
- Customizable
Nice but .. again not a hard need in my mind.
As someone that *tried* to work on this disaster :
I watched as a large filthy corporation step in and say "never ever on IBM hardware" and the whole thing was taken inside to become this :
http://labs.oracle.com/spotlight/2006/2006-06-14-SolarisPPC.htmlWhere it was very quietly killed.
Let's hope the big corporate world never calls up Mr. T ( dovecot author ) and tosses a billion dollars at him. A few million sure ... but not a billion. Otherwise dovecot would be wrecked by the greedy pigs at Oracle or IBM or Apple etc. Just my opinion.
Sorry for the OT
Dennis
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:07:27 -0400 Dennis Clarke dclarke@blastwave.org articulated:
Sometimes things are not and that is okay. GNOME is not XFCE or Fluxbox but we have freedom to choose either. Perhaps by "light" you mean you don't need 32G of memory and a dual socket 12-core Opteron 6100 series machine with some hot NVidia graphics card and 10Gb ethernet to just *barely* install Windows 8. :-)
I just installed Win7 on a 7 year old Dell 4550 with only 1G of RAM. Obviously, since I do not have the latest video cards, etc. installed in the PC, certain functions were disabled by default; however, it definitely works. I only did the installation to see if it would really work, and was pleasantly surprised to see how well it performed. That was, of course, on a virgin system (all data erased from drives and reformatted).
By the way, Win8 is not even scheduled to be released until at least July 1, 2010 and even that is not written in stone.
-- Jerry ✌ Dovecot.user@seibercom.net
Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry dovecot.user@seibercom.net Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 11:03 am Subject: Re: [Dovecot] Linux should be as easy as Windows To: dovecot@dovecot.org
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:07:27 -0400 Dennis Clarke dclarke@blastwave.org articulated:
Sometimes things are not and that is okay. GNOME is not XFCE or Fluxbox but we have freedom to choose either. Perhaps by "light" you mean you don't need 32G of memory and a dual socket 12-core Opteron 6100 series machine with some hot NVidia graphics card and 10Gb ethernet to just *barely* install Windows 8. :-)
I just installed Win7 on a 7 year old Dell 4550 with only 1G of RAM.
I have a new shiney multicore 64-bit machine with an NVidia graphics card etc etc and Win 7 seems to work "okay" with 4G of memory. Performance still sucks compared to Solaris or Debian on the same box but it plays movies well.
I installed Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit which I bought as a non-upgrade box kit. $$$$
Obviously, since I do not have the latest video cards, etc. installed in the PC, certain functions were disabled by default; however, it definitely works. I only did the installation to see if it would really work, and was pleasantly surprised to see how well it performed. That was, of course, on a virgin system (all data erased from drives and reformatted).
I'll try a old 32-bit box with baseline hardware sometime just to see ... it could be a waste of my time however.
By the way, Win8 is not even scheduled to be released until at least July 1, 2010 and even that is not written in stone.
I as joking. :-)
Dennis
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Dennis Clarke wrote:
Let's hope the big corporate world never calls up Mr. T ( dovecot author ) and tosses a billion dollars at him. A few million sure ... but not a billion. Otherwise dovecot would be wrecked by the greedy pigs at Oracle or IBM or Apple etc. Just my opinion.
Hi Dennis. If the demand is there then a fork under a different name can occur from the last OSS version. This has happened many times in the OSS community (eg OpenMosix). It nearly happened with CentOS recently of course.
Some people insist the name change is damaging but I think the evidence is against it. Many projects have changed names due to the insistence of a company that held some control of the name in question and the projects have been just fine (Firefox, Wireshark for example).
Cheers,
Rob
-- Email: robert@timetraveller.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Open Source: The revolution that silently changed the world
Quoting "Dennis Clarke" dclarke@blastwave.org:
From a "Standards" thread I saw this :
"Linux should be as easy as Windows"I would like to point out that this is a thinking problem. A shift
in thinking is required.That should say :
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"In this way we allow someone running BSD, Solaris or some port of
Debian to an old Dec AlphaServer will have the same level of
functionality provided standards are adhered to. Once programmers
begin to see everything in the light of Linux then we can also kiss
goodbye the opportunity for portability to other OS types.
Yuck. The problem with such a generalization as 'making things
easy', is that to do so the system needs to make decisions for the user.
The reason I stay away from Windows is because it tends to make bad decisions.
Rick
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:12:11 -0500 Rick Romero rick@havokmon.com articulated:
Yuck. The problem with such a generalization as 'making things
easy', is that to do so the system needs to make decisions for the user.The reason I stay away from Windows is because it tends to make bad decisions.
Every application makes assumptions about what the end user needs. Dovecot as well as other applications such as Postfix have default configuration files. The end user is responsible for tweaking these files for their own preferences.
Windows has the same capabilities. In fact, I have virtually never found a setting that I could not change in a Windows environment. The fact is that all too many users fail to RTFM and simply blame Windows for their own laziness.
-- Jerry ✌ Dovecot.user@seibercom.net
Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
On 08/18/2010 05:54 PM, Jerry wrote:
On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:12:11 -0500 Rick Romero rick@havokmon.com articulated:
Yuck. The problem with such a generalization as 'making things
easy', is that to do so the system needs to make decisions for the user.The reason I stay away from Windows is because it tends to make bad decisions.
Every application makes assumptions about what the end user needs. Dovecot as well as other applications such as Postfix have default configuration files. The end user is responsible for tweaking these files for their own preferences.
Windows has the same capabilities. In fact, I have virtually never found a setting that I could not change in a Windows environment. The fact is that all too many users fail to RTFM and simply blame Windows for their own laziness.
I have used a lots of differer OS. First one was Solars, the IBM OS/2, then AIX, Then came "a shock therapy" - DOS. For a long time I can't believe that someone developed OS on which you can run only one program in same time.:) Then graphical GUI appeared for DOS - Windows 3.x - 9x Then first real OS (NT based, with some real multitasking at last). And.. here comes nightmare of configuration. If someone ever tried to tune up a little Windows or lets say configure custom MS AD setup... then You know - it means real nightmare dealing with registry. Mostly undocumented. If someone gives me contents of /etc form *BSD, OSX of Linux - in few hours it can be examine and all system configuration is clear. But I don' t now any admin who can explain at less 1/3 of his Windows server registry settings. Let's export MS Excange 2007 IMAP server relateed registry part. All setting clear...? if not - documented?
E.g. try to configure MS Exchange to use Lotus Domino LDAP user database. Easy? I don't think so (while possible). With Dovecot it was 15 min admin task:)
I realy don't now any other OS with so complex (and same time puerly document) configuration than Windows with it's registry.
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:39:49AM +0300, Uldis Pakuls wrote:
I have used a lots of differer OS. First one was Solars, the IBM OS/2, then AIX, Then came "a shock therapy" - DOS. For a long time I can't believe that someone developed OS on which you can run only one program in same time.:) Then graphical GUI appeared for DOS - Windows 3.x - 9x
Blame that on IBM, to save a few dollars on cost it used a 16 bit CPU w/out memory protection. If they had used a motorola m68k (32 bit) CPU & an MMU chip we would all have been saved an enormous amount of agony. Although Bill G would have had to write DOS from scratch rather than buy it in. But then: IBM thought that it was only going to sell 50,000 of these machines so it wasn't really worth the bother to get the design right :-(
--
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include
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Dennis Clarke said the following on 18/08/10 15:41:
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"
Windows is not "easy" is "common".
In UK driving to the left is "easy" and driving to the right is "hard". In the continentale Europer is the opposite.
"easy" is more a point of view than a fact.
Ciao, luigi
/ +--[Luigi Rosa]-- \
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Luigi Rosa wrote:
Dennis Clarke said the following on 18/08/10 15:41:
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"Windows is not "easy" is "common".
In UK driving to the left is "easy" and driving to the right is "hard". In the continentale Europer is the opposite.
"easy" is more a point of view than a fact.
+1
--- On Wed, 18/8/10, Luigi Rosa lists@luigirosa.com wrote:
From: Luigi Rosa lists@luigirosa.com Subject: Re: [Dovecot] Linux should be as easy as Windows To: "Dovecot Mailing List" dovecot@dovecot.org Date: Wednesday, 18 August, 2010, 18:32 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Dennis Clarke said the following on 18/08/10 15:41:
"Open source and Free software should be as easy as Windows"
Windows is not "easy" is "common". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In UK driving to the left is "easy" and driving to the right is "hard". In the continentale Europer is the opposite.
"easy" is more a point of view than a fact.
Ciao, luigi
/ +--[Luigi Rosa]-- \
A professor is one who talks in someone else's sleep. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAkxr/PAACgkQ3kWu7Tfl6ZT3CACeIc4KBdb1bA1+kDFeccHzxSyl ErIAoKsugpyqK4x2hMvAGIPYvEySI+Tg =YCL8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
YES !! THANK YOU !!! :-)
I rest my case,
s.
participants (10)
-
Alain Williams
-
Dennis Clarke
-
Jerry
-
Luigi Rosa
-
Rick Romero
-
Robert Brockway
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Simone Caruso
-
Spyros Tsiolis
-
Steve Lindemann
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Uldis Pakuls