Timo (since he is the only one that maters here),
In past couple of days I have seen 4 people on IRC bitten by 2.2.8 and pigeonhole bug, none of them are on this list, so like all others who want to download and build them, are unaware of the patch, so, given how wide the userbase is with pigeonhole sieve and dovecot, this would or should be considered a serious bug, so my question is Timo, is it not best to immediately push 2.2.9, or should even more server administrators become frustrated and curse waiting two more months until you have a list you think is best putting out a new release, many of them dont like the constant new releases all the time with only minor things, but with a build failure, thats a serious issue.
Nick Edwards skrev den 2013-11-22 07:20:
Timo (since he is the only one that maters here),
so it should have being private mail ?
that sayed i keep dovecot 1.x as the most recent stable version, and 2.x as the unstable development version that works for some but not all
still have kernel 3.11.6 on gentoo, no problem with that, hmm :=)
living on edge can be fun sometimes
On 22/11/2013 7:28 PM, Benny Pedersen wrote:
Nick Edwards skrev den 2013-11-22 07:20:
Timo (since he is the only one that maters here),
so it should have being private mail ?
that sayed i keep dovecot 1.x as the most recent stable version, and 2.x as the unstable development version that works for some but not all
If 2.x that "unstable" can you tell us what bugs you keep running into that are stopping you upgrading?
Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims that any piece of software is full of bugs. What I'm asking is, specifically do you know of any bugs which Timo has not yet addressed, are you harbouring a big secret list of bugs that we don't know about, or are you just trolling?
Reuben
Reuben Farrelly skrev den 2013-11-22 09:37:
its a free world, any one can provide a patch if wanted to fix something, but if it aint broke, dont fix it
i have my silly choices, but seems from maillist here its good choices of keep 1.x still, and lucky i have a distro where its posible
On 11/22/13, Benny Pedersen me@junc.eu wrote:
Nick Edwards skrev den 2013-11-22 07:20:
Timo (since he is the only one that maters here),
so it should have being private mail ?
No Timo made it clear all dovecot stuff must go by list
that sayed i keep dovecot 1.x as the most recent stable version, and 2.x as the unstable development version that works for some but not all
what the fuck are you rambling about now? jesus christ, shut the fuck up and stop popping your dumb comments in when you have no fucking clue, this has nothing to do with 1 v 2 or some crap that your dumb arse delusional trolling mouth spills out
still have kernel 3.11.6 on gentoo, no problem with that, hmm :=)
and what the fuck does that have to do with it... christ, go take your drugs idiot and stop commenting on threads that are obvoiously above your intelligence grade
living on edge can be fun sometimes
I need a drink
Am 22.11.2013 17:17, schrieb Nick Edwards:
On 11/22/13, Benny Pedersen me@junc.eu wrote:
Nick Edwards skrev den 2013-11-22 07:20:
Timo (since he is the only one that maters here),
so it should have being private mail ?
No Timo made it clear all dovecot stuff must go by list
that sayed i keep dovecot 1.x as the most recent stable version, and 2.x as the unstable development version that works for some but not all
what the fuck are you rambling about now? jesus christ, shut the fuck up and stop popping your dumb comments in when you have no fucking clue, this has nothing to do with 1 v 2 or some crap that your dumb arse delusional trolling mouth spills out
ah - now you also woke up why i classified Benny as troll and told him to shut up leading in Noel Butler only see my reponse line quoted and start again his personal fight against me and people like you enter the train with "cool blacklist, i use it too"?
well, you most likely will not see this response until someone else quotes it, but more i can not do to make people realize that there is a difference between pure Trolls and people not always nice enough for everybody and his brother
Am 22.11.2013 17:17, schrieb Nick Edwards:
what the fuck are you rambling about now? jesus christ, shut the fuck up and stop popping your dumb comments in when you have no fucking clue, this has nothing to do with 1 v 2 or some crap that your dumb arse delusional trolling mouth spills out
and what the fuck does that have to do with it... christ, go take your drugs idiot and stop commenting on threads that are obvoiously above your intelligence grade
I need a drink
if i would post this summary to Benny the hell would freeze over while he has deserved it more than once.........
i wonder why people come up with blacklists and what else to judge one is allowed to say this, one is not because personal dislikes and whatever instead grow up and take rough answers like a man
On Sat, 2013-11-23 at 02:29 +0100, Benny Pedersen wrote:
Nick Edwards skrev den 2013-11-22 17:17:
I need a drink
if you can find some to drink with, all problems with dovecot will comeback tomorrow :=)
i just made another sieve rule now
What has this to do with dovecot? Take your trolling off list please.
I'm starting to regret defending you against Harald, perhaps its YOU who should be booted and not him Nicks right about one thing though, you seem to have not taken your medicated lately Benny.
(although you dont blindly go around abusing people on every list, and in CC's and private, so we wont blacklist you :) )
Everyone replying to this thread really should just shut up. I (and likely just about nobody else) don’t care who is more wrong or more right or a better or worse person or whatever, but any mails that have nothing to do with Dovecot don’t belong to this list. I have no interest in being some kind of a kindergarten teacher telling people how to behave, but there are about 3 of you who nowadays constantly seem to be wasting my time on thinking about it.
(And as for the original question: I’ll make v2.2.9 this weekend. And as for bugs, as I already once mentioned, I’m planning on implementing significantly more comprehensive testing for Dovecot during the next year.)
On Sat, 2013-11-23 at 04:06 +0200, Timo Sirainen In-Reply-To: 1385170783.4058.5.camel@tardis wrote:
but there are about 3 of you who nowadays constantly seem to be wasting my time on thinking about it.
no doubt, despite my one single post to "them" in long time, but being informed that my name has been dragged into their shit fight a few times, you of course include me in this gang of 3, frankly, I've had a gutfull of your lengthy vendetta, it is after all why I rarely waste my time here and the those I've helped have mostly been via private anyway, now, my time for lists is being more rare these days, I have far more important activities to worry about in life, so it is with much pleasure I inform you that you will need to find some other poor sucker to blame for the trolls and idiots, I am removing myself from the dovecot "community" forthwith, well, in 3 minutes, enough time for this message to make it through mailman before I confirm unsub :)
oh before I go, ya know, if you reigned in the regular offenders like other lists, nobody else would have needed to.
On 11/22/2013 7:06 PM, Timo Sirainen wrote:
Everyone replying to this thread really should just shut up. I (and likely just about nobody else) don’t care who is more wrong or more right or a better or worse person or whatever, but any mails that have nothing to do with Dovecot don’t belong to this list. I have no interest in being some kind of a kindergarten teacher telling people how to behave, but there are about 3 of you who nowadays constantly seem to be wasting my time on thinking about it.
(And as for the original question: I’ll make v2.2.9 this weekend. And as for bugs, as I already once mentioned, I’m planning on implementing significantly more comprehensive testing for Dovecot during the next year.)
Thanks for the great software, Timo.
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 01:10:04AM -0700, Eric Broch wrote:
On 11/22/2013 7:06 PM, Timo Sirainen wrote:
(And as for the original question: I’ll make v2.2.9 this weekend. And as for bugs, as I already once mentioned, I’m planning on implementing significantly more comprehensive testing for Dovecot during the next year.)
Thanks for the great software, Timo.
I agree. It's very good software, and I appreciate all the hard work you put in, Timo.
Simon.
-- The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.
Am 23.11.2013 02:29, schrieb Benny Pedersen:
Nick Edwards skrev den 2013-11-22 17:17:
I need a drink
if you can find some to drink with, all problems with dovecot will comeback tomorrow :=)
so why are you subscribed here? you permanently attack dovecot itself on the dovecot list
i just made another sieve rule now
makes you not smarter, it only shows why i told you to shut up days ago resulting in attacks of Noel and Nick because i am the bad guy
would you have quoted fair maybe even Noel would have realized it was deserved because you stripped out quoting your trolling
- Nick Edwards nick.z.edwards@gmail.com:
Timo (since he is the only one that maters here),
In past couple of days I have seen 4 people on IRC bitten by 2.2.8 and pigeonhole bug, none of them are on this list, so like all others who want to download and build them, are unaware of the patch,
Which patch?
-- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebrandt@charite.de | http://www.charite.de
- Ralf Hildebrandt Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de 2013.11.22 09:44:
Which patch?
http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2013-November/093654.html
Pigeonhole related patches.
- Thomas Leuxner tlx@leuxner.net:
- Ralf Hildebrandt Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de 2013.11.22 09:44:
Which patch?
http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2013-November/093654.html
Pigeonhole related patches.
Damn. Those are biting me as well :/
-- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebrandt@charite.de | http://www.charite.de
On Fri, 2013-11-22 at 10:14 +0100, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
- Thomas Leuxner tlx@leuxner.net:
- Ralf Hildebrandt Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de 2013.11.22 09:44:
Which patch?
http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2013-November/093654.html
Pigeonhole related patches.
Damn. Those are biting me as well :/
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most software does, or gets his devs and a community of official testers each with wildly different configurations and set ups, ASF have an excellent model that could be followed, bunch of devs and testers who each report on different distros and configs, why? because no single dev can imagine and test every possible configuration. it might just save dovecot's good name, I recall a lot of damage was done to that in the circles I'm in when 2.0 was released with patches nearly every few days and weeks, I know a few ISP's and businesses that went back to courier or Wu's because major bugs were getting in often, though it has been a lot better since 2.1 series, until this release that is :)
On 23-11-2013 3:47, Noel Butler wrote:
On Fri, 2013-11-22 at 10:14 +0100, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
- Thomas Leuxner tlx@leuxner.net:
- Ralf Hildebrandt Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de 2013.11.22 09:44:
Which patch?
http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2013-November/093654.html
Pigeonhole related patches.
Damn. Those are biting me as well :/
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most software does, or gets his devs and a community of official testers each with wildly different configurations and set ups, ASF have an excellent model that could be followed, bunch of devs and testers who each report on different distros and configs, why? because no single dev can imagine and test every possible configuration. it might just save dovecot's good name, I recall a lot of damage was done to that in the circles I'm in when 2.0 was released with patches nearly every few days and weeks, I know a few ISP's and businesses that went back to courier or Wu's because major bugs were getting in often, though it has been a lot better since 2.1 series, until this release that is :)
I second this and offer my services for two, three different system configs from Dovecot's plain old simple config with MAILDIR to slightly more complicated configurations with proxying/LDAP/dsync/mySQL etc based on virtualization with KVM.
I also propose that upon employing above strategy that Timo should come up with a release cycles (long term, short term) with announced targets. Patches should be released as patches strictly as needed, not releases, and should be announced on a low traffic list like he is already doing with releases. OR something along these lines.
I know these are growing pains but essential. Email systems are CRITICAL for most of us.
Andreas
On 23-11-2013 18:44, Andreas Kasenides wrote:
On 23-11-2013 3:47, Noel Butler wrote:
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most ....
I second this and offer my services for two, three different system
What is the difference between a 'RC' and a new version?
One should TEST this new version ALWAYS before using it in production (it does not matter if there was a 'RC' before it...)
2 cents....
;)
On 23-11-2013 19:56, Luuk wrote:
On 23-11-2013 18:44, Andreas Kasenides wrote:
On 23-11-2013 3:47, Noel Butler wrote:
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most ....
I second this and offer my services for two, three different system
What is the difference between a 'RC' and a new version?
One should TEST this new version ALWAYS before using it in production (it does not matter if there was a 'RC' before it...)
2 cents....
;)
RC means exactly what is says Release Client :) NOT a release. So if you get bitten by it then do not come here complaining. Most software go through several RCs before issuing a normal release. Most administrators have test systems that can test RCs for basic functionality and report here of any problems to be fixed. Some though jump into a new release when one is available. An RC should at least show the red flag raised.
Andreas
On Nov 23, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Andreas Kasenides andreas@cymail.eu wrote:
RC means exactly what is says Release Client :) NOT a release.
Release Candidate, not Client. A candidate to be the final release unless a late bug is found.
-- Larry Stone lstone19@stonejongleux.com http://www.stonejongleux.com/
Hi all,
In recent years I use dovecot installed from FreeBSD ports. Interestingly, I feel that they follow the dovecot releases rather well but with some lag, e.g. currently it is at 2.2.6. I don't know if that is 'by design' or caused by lack of manpower, but it works pretty well in that problems usually get fixed before the update =) (And then again, nobody says you should install a new version on the release day).
Also, I am not sure RCs as such would do much good, since most of the test systems are not likely to reproduce the volume and diversity of production workloads.
Best wishes Eugene
-----Original Message----- From: Andreas Kasenides Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:24 PM To: dovecot@dovecot.org Subject: Re: [Dovecot] 2.2.9
On 23-11-2013 19:56, Luuk wrote:
On 23-11-2013 18:44, Andreas Kasenides wrote:
On 23-11-2013 3:47, Noel Butler wrote:
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most ....
I second this and offer my services for two, three different system
What is the difference between a 'RC' and a new version?
One should TEST this new version ALWAYS before using it in production (it does not matter if there was a 'RC' before it...)
2 cents....
;)
RC means exactly what is says Release Client :) NOT a release. So if you get bitten by it then do not come here complaining. Most software go through several RCs before issuing a normal release. Most administrators have test systems that can test RCs for basic functionality and report here of any problems to be fixed. Some though jump into a new release when one is available. An RC should at least show the red flag raised.
Andreas
On 2013-11-23 19:08, Eugene wrote:
Also, I am not sure RCs as such would do much good, since most of the test systems are not likely to reproduce the volume and diversity of production workloads.
Perhaps, then, a simple 'click for thumbs up' approach on the web site, to say "I have installed this version and it is working for me." It requires more input from the user base, but for the people who wait to make sure others find the bugs first, it would give confidence that this has happened.
Simon.
-- The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute is operated by Genome Research Limited, a charity registered in England with number 1021457 and a company registered in England with number 2742969, whose registered office is 215 Euston Road, London, NW1 2BE.
Am 23.11.2013 20:08, schrieb Eugene:
In recent years I use dovecot installed from FreeBSD ports. Interestingly, I feel that they follow the dovecot releases rather well but with some lag, e.g. currently it is at 2.2.6. I don't know if that is 'by design' or caused by lack of manpower, but it works pretty well in that problems usually get fixed before the update =) (And then again, nobody says you should install a new version on the release day).
Also, I am not sure RCs as such would do much good, since most of the test systems are not likely to reproduce the volume and diversity of production workloads.
in general RCs are doing good for several reasons
- confirm bugs in whatever patches flying around are confirmed to fix
- verify that there are no show-stoppers
- verify that patches flying around have no obvious regressions
don't know what release exactly it was, but one of the last year simply broke TLS/SSL using dovecot as proxy in front of imap/pop3
- i saw the relase announce
- built the RPM
- installed it on my testserver
- first connection-> segfault
that are basics which should not happen in any release of whatever software well, that is why you should have test-setups for them before call yourself sysadmin and you do not need the production load to verify "thats broken"
that there maybe other bugs only visible under load is a different story but bugs which are catched with a trivial test should not be in a release
so yes, RCs are fine because they prevent a majority of users get hit by a regeression from a random patch solving whatever border case in the CVS which may make only a few people happy and bite most others
that is why every serious software is using Beta/RC/Release they give people the chance to make tests *before* the release without need to compile each day the current CVS state
On 11/24/13, Eugene genie@geniechka.ru wrote:
Hi all,
In recent years I use dovecot installed from FreeBSD ports. Interestingly, I
feel that they follow the dovecot releases rather well but with some lag, e.g. currently it is at 2.2.6. I don't know if that is 'by design' or caused
by lack of manpower, but it works pretty well in that problems usually get fixed before the update =) (And then again, nobody says you should install a new version on the release
day).
Also, I am not sure RCs as such would do much good, since most of the test systems are not likely to reproduce the volume and diversity of production workloads.
you dont do any testing for software do you? :) I do for one very popular bit of software, although we can not test for every configuration, loading and stress testing is very common on all configurations we do check :)
On 11/24/13, Luuk dovecot@vosslamber.nl wrote:
On 23-11-2013 18:44, Andreas Kasenides wrote:
On 23-11-2013 3:47, Noel Butler wrote:
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most ....
I second this and offer my services for two, three different system
What is the difference between a 'RC' and a new version?
One should TEST this new version ALWAYS before using it in production (it does not matter if there was a 'RC' before it...)
this is why most softwares have a group of people testing them, so when you "test it" you hopefully dont find any.
2 cents....
;)
On 11/24/13, Andreas Kasenides andreas@cymail.eu wrote:
On 23-11-2013 3:47, Noel Butler wrote:
On Fri, 2013-11-22 at 10:14 +0100, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
- Thomas Leuxner tlx@leuxner.net:
- Ralf Hildebrandt Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de 2013.11.22 09:44:
Which patch?
http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2013-November/093654.html
Pigeonhole related patches.
Damn. Those are biting me as well :/
These would be found if Timo reverted back to issuing RC's before any official release, to iron out the niggly off-putting bugs, like most software does, or gets his devs and a community of official testers each with wildly different configurations and set ups, ASF have an excellent model that could be followed, bunch of devs and testers who each report on different distros and configs, why? because no single dev can imagine and test every possible configuration. it might just save dovecot's good name, I recall a lot of damage was done to that in the circles I'm in when 2.0 was released with patches nearly every few days and weeks, I know a few ISP's and businesses that went back to courier or Wu's because major bugs were getting in often, though it has been a lot better since 2.1 series, until this release that is :)
I second this and offer my services for two, three different system configs from Dovecot's plain old simple config with MAILDIR to slightly more complicated configurations with proxying/LDAP/dsync/mySQL etc based on virtualization with KVM.
I also propose that upon employing above strategy that Timo should come up with a release cycles (long term, short term) with announced targets. Patches should be released as patches strictly as needed, not releases, and should be announced on a low traffic list like he is already doing with releases. OR something along these lines.
careful, or the suckups will go you next :)
I know these are growing pains but essential. Email systems are CRITICAL for most of us.
dovecot is over 10 years, most softwares overcome these in the first couple of years
Andreas
participants (15)
-
Andreas Kasenides
-
Benny Pedersen
-
Eric Broch
-
Eugene
-
Larry Stone
-
Luuk
-
Nick Edwards
-
Noel Butler
-
Ralf Hildebrandt
-
Reindl Harald
-
Reuben Farrelly
-
Simon Fraser
-
srf
-
Thomas Leuxner
-
Timo Sirainen