July 2011 - dovecot - dovecot.org

Re: [Dovecot] Thundebird 5.0 stuck until FETCH is done
by Emanuele Leuzzi 21 Jul '11

21 Jul '11

Il 20/07/2011 12:48, Emanuele Leuzzi ha scritto: > > > Il 20/07/2011 12:04, Robert Schetterer ha scritto: >> Am 20.07.2011 11:56, schrieb Emanuele Leuzzi: >>> I'm following the debian (lenny) repository.... >>> >>> dovecot -n >>> >>> hercules:/home/eleuzzi# dovecot -n >>> # 1.0.15: /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf >>> base_dir: /var/run/dovecot/ >>> log_timestamp: %Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S >>> protocols: pop3s imaps imap pop3 >>> listen(default): hidden:10143 >>> listen(imap): hidden:10143 >>> listen(pop3): * >>> ssl_listen: hidden >>> ssl_cert_file: /etc/ssl/v-power/mailserver/mail-cert.pem >>> ssl_key_file: /etc/ssl/v-power/mailserver/mail-key.pem >>> login_dir: /var/run/dovecot/login >>> login_executable(default): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap-login >>> login_executable(imap): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap-login >>> login_executable(pop3): /usr/lib/dovecot/pop3-login >>> login_greeting_capability(default): yes >>> login_greeting_capability(imap): yes >>> login_greeting_capability(pop3): no >>> login_max_processes_count: 512 >>> first_valid_uid: 150 >>> last_valid_uid: 1500 >>> mail_privileged_group: mail >>> mail_location: maildir:~/Maildir >>> maildir_copy_with_hardlinks: yes >>> umask: 2 >>> mail_executable(default): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap >>> mail_executable(imap): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap >>> mail_executable(pop3): /usr/lib/dovecot/pop3 >>> mail_plugin_dir(default): /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/imap >>> mail_plugin_dir(imap): /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/imap >>> mail_plugin_dir(pop3): /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/pop3 >>> imap_client_workarounds(default): outlook-idle tb-extra-mailbox-sep >>> imap_client_workarounds(imap): outlook-idle tb-extra-mailbox-sep >>> imap_client_workarounds(pop3): outlook-idle >>> pop3_uidl_format(default): >>> pop3_uidl_format(imap): >>> pop3_uidl_format(pop3): %08Xu%08Xv >>> auth default: >>> mechanisms: plain login cram-md5 >>> passdb: >>> driver: passwd-file >>> args: /etc/cram-md5.pwd >>> passdb: >>> driver: pam >>> passdb: >>> driver: sql >>> args: /etc/dovecot/dovecot-sql.conf >>> userdb: >>> driver: passwd >>> userdb: >>> driver: sql >>> args: /etc/dovecot/dovecot-sql.conf >>> socket: >>> type: listen >>> client: >>> path: /var/spool/postfix/private/auth >>> mode: 432 >>> user: postfix >>> group: postfix >>> master: >>> path: /var/run/dovecot/auth-master >>> mode: 384 >>> user: vmail >>> group: mail >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> Il 20/07/2011 11:38, Robert Schetterer ha scritto: >>>> Am 20.07.2011 11:32, schrieb Emanuele Leuzzi: >>>>> I'm using thunderbird 5.0 with dovecot 1.0.15. My client stuck >>>>> downloading IMAP header every 10-15' Until the FETCH is done from >>>>> 1 to >>>>> 76687 (it's needs a looong time), my client isn't usable >>>>> >>>>> Could you help me to fix this issue? >>>>> >>>>> Below the log. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:A:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * FLAGS >>>>> (\Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Seen \Draft unknown-1 unknown-0 >>>>> unknown-7 >>>>> unknown-2 unknown-3 unknown-4 unknown-5 unknown-8 unknown-6 >>>>> unknown-11 >>>>> NonJunk unknown-9 $MDNSent unknown-10 $Forwarded) >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:A:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * OK >>>>> [PERMANENTFLAGS (\Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Seen \Draft unknown-1 >>>>> unknown-0 unknown-7 unknown-2 unknown-3 unknown-4 unknown-5 unknown-8 >>>>> unknown-6 unknown-11 NonJunk unknown-9 $MDNSent unknown-10 $Forwarded >>>>> \*)] Flags permitted. >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:A:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 76686 >>>>> EXISTS >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: >>>>> * 1 >>>>> FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 1) >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: >>>>> * 2 >>>>> FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 2) >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=43 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: >>>>> * 3 >>>>> FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen unknown-1) UID 3) >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: >>>>> * 4 >>>>> FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 4) >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: >>>>> * 5 >>>>> FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 5) >>>>> >>>>> _cut_ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * >>>>> 76685 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 76748) >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=41 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * >>>>> 76686 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 76749) >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=16 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * >>>>> 76687 EXISTS >>>>> >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=23 needmore=0] >>>>> 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: >>>>> 8 OK >>>>> Fetch completed. >>>>> >>>> you should upgrade to dove 2.x >>>> no problem tb5 here withit, for more debug you dove conf might be >>>> helpfull >>>> >> sorry i am to far with 1.x versions >> >> but try to disable tb-extra-mailbox-sep >> you shouldnt need it >> >> do you use maildir ? >> guess your using local users ? >> >> i guess your problems are >> somewhere with uids an local users >> >> i never had such setups >> wait for others on the list response you might get more qualified >> answers >> but i am nearly sure it has nothing to to with tb5 >> >> --- >> Best Regards >> >> MfG Robert Schetterer >> >> Germany/Munich/Bavaria > > However I've just upgraded to 2.x and disabled tb-extra-mailbox-sep. > > I'm using maildir to local users. I've upgradeted to 2.0.13, but the problems didn't solved... It seems that the server returns flags for all of the messages in that folder when you select it. Do you know how fix it? > > -- > --------------------------------------------------- > Emanuele Leuzzi > Responsabile Sistemi Informativi > > Email: eleuzzi(a)v-power.sm > Skype: e.leuzzi > Tel: (+378) 0549 960606 > Fax: (+378) 0549 954984 > > V-Power S.r.l. > Via ulivo di Avoltrone, 2/B > 47899 Serravalle > Republic of San Marino > > http://www.v-power.sm > --------------------------------------------------- > Avviso: Questa e-mail è strettamente confidenziale ed è destinata alle > sola/e persone/e sopraindicate. Se veniste per errore in possesso di > questa e-mail, non copiatela, distribuitela o reinoltratela: > distruggetela immediatamente e notificatelo al mittente a mezzo > e-mail. Il mittente non è responsabile per l'eventuale utilizzo che > verrà fatto di questa email dai destinatari, se la mail è sprovvista > di firma digitale il mittente non garantisce per la sua autenticità > dopo la partenza. Il testo della email potrebbe contenere opinioni > personali e non necessariamente riconducibili a quelle di V-Power srl. > > Tutela della Privacy: Si ricorda che qualora non desideriate ricevere > più informazioni di questo genere, Vi preghiamo di inviare una email > all'indirizzo info(a)v-power.sm citando CANCELLAZIONE nell'Oggetto. Il > Vostro nominativo sarà rimosso dalle nostre rubriche. > > Notice: This message is intended only for the named recipient and may > contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. > Any forward, distribution, or copying of this information is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this message in error, do not > forward, distribute, or copy it: please advise the sender by reply > e-mail, and delete this message. Sender is not responsible of any > misuse of this e-mail message. If this e-mail message arrive not > digitally signed, sender can’t guarantee authenticity after the > departure of this e-mail. Opinions contained herein may be the > personal opinion of the sender and do not necessarily represent the > views of V-Power srl. > -- --------------------------------------------------- Emanuele Leuzzi Responsabile Sistemi Informativi Email: eleuzzi(a)v-power.sm Skype: e.leuzzi Tel: (+378) 0549 960606 Fax: (+378) 0549 954984 V-Power S.r.l. Via ulivo di Avoltrone, 2/B 47899 Serravalle Republic of San Marino http://www.v-power.sm --------------------------------------------------- Avviso: Questa e-mail è strettamente confidenziale ed è destinata alle sola/e persone/e sopraindicate. Se veniste per errore in possesso di questa e-mail, non copiatela, distribuitela o reinoltratela: distruggetela immediatamente e notificatelo al mittente a mezzo e-mail. Il mittente non è responsabile per l'eventuale utilizzo che verrà fatto di questa email dai destinatari, se la mail è sprovvista di firma digitale il mittente non garantisce per la sua autenticità dopo la partenza. Il testo della email potrebbe contenere opinioni personali e non necessariamente riconducibili a quelle di V-Power srl. Tutela della Privacy: Si ricorda che qualora non desideriate ricevere più informazioni di questo genere, Vi preghiamo di inviare una email all'indirizzo info(a)v-power.sm citando CANCELLAZIONE nell'Oggetto. Il Vostro nominativo sarà rimosso dalle nostre rubriche. Notice: This message is intended only for the named recipient and may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. Any forward, distribution, or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, do not forward, distribute, or copy it: please advise the sender by reply e-mail, and delete this message. Sender is not responsible of any misuse of this e-mail message. If this e-mail message arrive not digitally signed, sender can’t guarantee authenticity after the departure of this e-mail. Opinions contained herein may be the personal opinion of the sender and do not necessarily represent the views of V-Power srl.

2 5

[Dovecot] Writing a Dovecot Plugin
by Meisam Navaki 21 Jul '11

21 Jul '11

Hi, I'm going to write a plugin like mail_log.How can I write a plugin for dovecot?Is there any tutorial or sample for it? -- -- *Regards Meisam Navaki Arefi, *

2 2

[Dovecot] Connection dropped by IMAP server
by Marc Perkel 21 Jul '11

21 Jul '11

Some time people running Squirrelmail get connection dropped by imap server. Anyone know what causes this? Thanks in advance.

3 3

[Dovecot] dovecot2 on Snow Leopard trouble
by Denis J. Cirulis 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

Hello list, I have one task to complete - to install and configure imap server on Mac Mini OS X 10.6.8. I'm not new to dovecot, so the favorite imap server is dovecot. Are there any special settings running dovecot on OS X ? I've compiled dovecot 2.0.13 with mysql5 and openssl via macports. Configured virtual users from mysql and turned on all debug, but when I connect to this server via MUA I'm receiving the message "Mailbox locked. Next try in XX seconds" or something like that. No errors in dovecot.log, clean auth process, correct data (passwords,spool dirs) from mysql. Same configuration works on Linux,FreeBSD and Solaris like a charm. What can be a problem running on OS X ?

1 0

[Dovecot] GSSAPI makes webmail access really slow
by Nicolas GRENECHE 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

Hello, I use dovecot 1.2.15 as an IMAP backend for Horde webmail. When I enable PLAIN and GSSAPI as authentication mecanisms, it makes Horde very slow. If I enable only PLAIN it is a lot more fast. Do you have a clue to solve this issue ? Here is my dovecot.conf : protocols = imap imaps pop3s managesieve mail_location = maildir:/ext/spool/imap/%1Mu/%u first_valid_uid=97 last_valid_uid=97 ssl_cert_file = /usr/local/cert/mailper/cert.pem ssl_key_file = /usr/local/cert/mailper/mail.key ssl_ca_file = /usr/local/cert/mailper/chain.pem auth_debug = yes disable_plaintext_auth = no ## tuning ## login_process_size = 64 login_max_processes_count = 196 login_max_connections = 384 auth_worker_max_count = 30 ## fin tuning ## protocol imap { mail_plugins = quota imap_quota ## tuning ## login_processes_count = 4 ## fin tunning ## } protocol pop3 { mail_plugins = quota ## tuning ## login_processes_count = 3 ## fin tunning ## } auth_cache_size = 4096 auth_cache_ttl = 1800 protocol lda { mail_plugins = quota sieve postmaster_address = root(a)example.fr } protocol managesieve { listen = *:2000 } mail_uid = vmail mail_gid = vmail auth_krb5_keytab = /etc/dovecot/keytab/pop-imap.mail.keytab auth default { socket listen { master { path = /var/run/dovecot/auth-master mode = 0600 user = vmail } } mechanisms = plain passdb pam { args = max_requests=50 cache_key=%u%r dovecot } userdb static { args = uid=vmail gid=vmail allow_all_users=yes } user = root } dict { } plugin { quota = maildir:User quota quota_rule = *:storage=1G # The location of the user's active script: sieve_dir = /ext/spool/sieve/%1Mu/%u sieve = /ext/spool/sieve/%1Mu/%u/dovecot.sieve }

1 0

[Dovecot] Thundebird 5.0 stuck until FETCH is done
by Emanuele Leuzzi 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

I'm using thunderbird 5.0 with dovecot 1.0.15. My client stuck downloading IMAP header every 10-15' Until the FETCH is done from 1 to 76687 (it's needs a looong time), my client isn't usable Could you help me to fix this issue? Below the log. Thank you 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:A:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * FLAGS (\Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Seen \Draft unknown-1 unknown-0 unknown-7 unknown-2 unknown-3 unknown-4 unknown-5 unknown-8 unknown-6 unknown-11 NonJunk unknown-9 $MDNSent unknown-10 $Forwarded) 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:A:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * OK [PERMANENTFLAGS (\Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Seen \Draft unknown-1 unknown-0 unknown-7 unknown-2 unknown-3 unknown-4 unknown-5 unknown-8 unknown-6 unknown-11 NonJunk unknown-9 $MDNSent unknown-10 $Forwarded \*)] Flags permitted. 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:A:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 76686 EXISTS 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 1 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 1) 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 2 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 2) 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=43 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 3 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen unknown-1) UID 3) 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 4 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 4) 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=33 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 5 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 5) _cut_ 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 76685 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 76748) 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=41 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 76686 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen) UID 76749) 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=16 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: * 76687 EXISTS 2680[9cc6d00]: ReadNextLine [stream=dbf8a28 nb=23 needmore=0] 2680[9cc6d00]: 9ccf800:mailserver:S-INBOX:CreateNewLineFromSocket: 8 OK Fetch completed. -- --------------------------------------------------- Emanuele Leuzzi Responsabile Sistemi Informativi Email: eleuzzi(a)v-power.sm Skype: e.leuzzi Tel: (+378) 0549 960606 Fax: (+378) 0549 954984 V-Power S.r.l. Via ulivo di Avoltrone, 2/B 47899 Serravalle Republic of San Marino http://www.v-power.sm --------------------------------------------------- Avviso: Questa e-mail è strettamente confidenziale ed è destinata alle sola/e persone/e sopraindicate. Se veniste per errore in possesso di questa e-mail, non copiatela, distribuitela o reinoltratela: distruggetela immediatamente e notificatelo al mittente a mezzo e-mail. Il mittente non è responsabile per l'eventuale utilizzo che verrà fatto di questa email dai destinatari, se la mail è sprovvista di firma digitale il mittente non garantisce per la sua autenticità dopo la partenza. Il testo della email potrebbe contenere opinioni personali e non necessariamente riconducibili a quelle di V-Power srl. Tutela della Privacy: Si ricorda che qualora non desideriate ricevere più informazioni di questo genere, Vi preghiamo di inviare una email all'indirizzo info(a)v-power.sm citando CANCELLAZIONE nell'Oggetto. Il Vostro nominativo sarà rimosso dalle nostre rubriche. Notice: This message is intended only for the named recipient and may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. Any forward, distribution, or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, do not forward, distribute, or copy it: please advise the sender by reply e-mail, and delete this message. Sender is not responsible of any misuse of this e-mail message. If this e-mail message arrive not digitally signed, sender can’t guarantee authenticity after the departure of this e-mail. Opinions contained herein may be the personal opinion of the sender and do not necessarily represent the views of V-Power srl.

2 1

[Dovecot] Performance with 200k messages in Maildir
by Vegard Svanberg 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

What should I expect performance-wise if I put 200000 messages in a Maildir store and use two or three MUAs (mutt and Thunderbird), on an Athlon dual core 2GHz with SATA drives in software RAID (Linux)? Like; would it be useless/crawling, usable or pretty fast. I imagine MUA startup / first time folder read would be slow, but daily use more or less ok. Thanks to Dovecot's indexing, I imagine I would be better off interfacing Mutt to Maildir via IMAP and Dovecot rather than accessing Maildir/ directly? -- Vegard Svanberg <vegard(a)svanberg.no> [*Takapa@IRC (EFnet)]

6 10

[Dovecot] passwd not found
by Erik - versatel 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

If I use in dovecot.conf passdb passwd-file { args = /etc/dovecot/vhosts/%d/etc/shadow } userdb static { args = uid=virtual gid=virtual home=/var/mail/vhosts/%d/%u allow_all_users=yes } I get an authorisation failure in my mail.log file. If I use passdb passwd-file { args = /etc/dovecot/vhosts/shadow } userdb static { args = uid=virtual gid=virtual home=/var/mail/vhosts/%d/%u allow_all_users=yes } This works !!! (without the %d) in the passdb passwd-file Than the %d/%u is correctly rewritten in the userdb static. PS I have in the passwd-file the username@domain and the username documented for testing. I think there is some problem with the %d (DOMAIN) How can I check if %d is filled ?? And how can i make different authorisationdirs and files per domain. Thanks Erik My config # 1.2.15: /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf # OS: Linux 2.6.32-5-686 i686 Debian 6.0.2 ext4 log_timestamp: %Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S protocols: imap imaps pop3 pop3s ssl_cert_file: /etc/ssl/certs/server.crt ssl_key_file: /etc/ssl/private/server.key login_dir: /var/run/dovecot/login login_executable(default): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap-login login_executable(imap): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap-login login_executable(pop3): /usr/lib/dovecot/pop3-login mail_privileged_group: mail mail_location: maildir:/var/mail/vhosts/%d/%n/Maildir mail_debug: yes mbox_write_locks: fcntl dotlock mail_executable(default): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap mail_executable(imap): /usr/lib/dovecot/imap mail_executable(pop3): /usr/lib/dovecot/pop3 mail_plugin_dir(default): /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/imap mail_plugin_dir(imap): /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/imap mail_plugin_dir(pop3): /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/pop3 auth default: mechanisms: plain login passdb: driver: passwd-file args: /etc/dovecot/vhosts/shadow userdb: driver: static args: uid=virtual gid=virtual home=/var/mail/vhosts/%d/%u allow_all_users=yes socket: type: listen client: path: /var/spool/postfix/private/auth-client mode: 432 user: postfix group: postfix

1 0

[Dovecot] Dovecot Notification Plugin
by Meisam Navaki 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

Hi, I need to know how notfiy plugin works?who will be informed by this plugin?Is it configurable? -- *Regards Meisam Navaki*,

1 0

[Dovecot] Dovecot 2, Imap service, client_limit
by Steve Fatula 20 Jul '11

20 Jul '11

I see back in November of last year, a thread about using client_limit in the imap service (not imap-login) that would allow each imap process serve more than one connection. Sounded good, until I tried it! When I did, unlike the OP of that thread, I got: dovecot: imap(submit.user): Fatal: setuid(503(submit.user) from userdb lookup) failed with euid=501(links): Operation not permitted (This binary should probably be called with process user set to 503(submit.user) instead of 501(links)) So, it would appear that this does not work. Still, the thread was posting results of their testing even that showed it worked. Sample message within the thread, read for more: http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2010-November/054893.html I'd love to be able to use a single imap process for more than one connection. Is this still possible, or, not? If so, how? Steve

4 3