- dovecot - dovecot.org

[Dovecot] Custom 'quota exceeded' message + Sieve script from database
by Przemyslaw Wegrzyn 13 Jan '08

13 Jan '08

Hi! I'm quite new to Dovecot. helping my friend to migrate from Courier-IMAP to something more efficient, we are evaluating Dovecot at the moment. I had to prepare 2 small patches for Dovecot to suit our needs, and I've decided to post it here. I'm not fully familiar with Dovecot architecture yet, I'd appreciate if someone could look if these changes make sense (i.e. doesn't break anything). And of course, maybe someone is interested as well. 1. Customized "quota exceeded" message. http://czajnick.sitenet.pl/dovecot/dovecot_1.0.9_quota_exceeded_message.diff - quick hack to let me define custom message instead of typical "Quota exceeded", simply by using plugins { quota_exceeded_message = ... }. Browsing this mailing list I've seen some posts about such feature being implemented in Dovecot. Is it done in a similar way? Which stable version is the first to include this functionality? 2. Sieve filter modification http://czajnick.sitenet.pl/dovecot/dovecot_sieve_1.0.2_envscript_patch.diff In our systems we currently use a modified maildrop MDA that picks the filter script from the database instead of the file. This has proven useful - end-user's administration panel doesn't need any special permissions (or networking capabilities), as it doesn't need to access the filesystem - it is reduced to a plain database web-app. The patch above makes the delivery agent check for the sieve script present in SIEVE_SCRIPT environment variable. If this is the case, env var content is used instead of the script stored in a usual file pointed to by SIEVE variable. This makes it trivial to pass the script from the database using base dovecot functionality. A minor drawback of such solution is that the script is re-compiled on each delivery, but I don't think it takes much time to compile a few lines of a script using (f)lex/bison-or-yacc parser. Yes, I've noticed the sieve-manage patch, but I don't want the complexity of managing sieve script over the socket connection (if my understanding of the script is wrong, please correct me). BR, Przemyslaw

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[Dovecot] do not lose mail when dovecot is dead
by Daniel 13 Jan '08

13 Jan '08

Hi! Recently I've experienced problems with dovecot. Dovecot died silently, what means is that there are no core files, nor any indication in the log files, just the "kevent(): Invalid argument" messages. Dovecot just died, so deliver could not connect to the auth-master socket, which means that messages couldn't been delivered. The problem is that postfix thought that the delivery was successful, and didn't place the message to delay, but deliver(LDA) couldn't deliver the message, so it got lost. An example: postfix/pickup[29619]: 8A1C6F261: uid=1001 from=<id> postfix/cleanup[19148]: 8A1C6F261: message-id=<20080107192402.8A1C6F261(a)domain.hu> postfix/qmgr[29441]: 8A1C6F261: from=<id(a)domain.hu>, size=585, nrcpt=1 (queue active) deliver(leva): Loading modules from directory: /usr/local/lib/dovecot/lda deliver(leva): Module loaded: /usr/local/lib/dovecot/lda/lib10_quota_plugin.so deliver(leva): Module loaded: /usr/local/lib/dovecot/lda/lib90_cmusieve_plugin.so deliver(leva): Can't connect to auth server at /var/run/dovecot/auth-master: Connection refused postfix/pipe[8582]: 8A1C6F261: to=<leva(a)domain.hu>, orig_to=<id>, relay=dovecot-lda, delay=1.7, delays=1.1/0/0/0 .68, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via dovecot-lda service) postfix/qmgr[29441]: 8A1C6F261: removed See? Postfix removed it from the queue, so basically all bets are off, and everything depends on deliver, but it just dropped the message. Is there anything that can be done regarding this issue? Thanks! Daniel

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[Dovecot] randomly disconnected with imap, and latest hg
by Daniel 12 Jan '08

12 Jan '08

Hi! I'm using latest hg from the 1.1 branch, and noticed that since yesterday's updates, dovecot randomly disconnects clients when using imap, with these message in the log: "Disconnected for inactivity in reading our output bytes=153/41319" This happens randomly. Eg. I'm fetching messages, and suddenly, dovecot disconnects. Or my MUA just sits there, and then again, dovecot disconnects me with this message. I didn't even do anything with the client, so I can't think of anything which could've been read. What could be the problem? Daniel

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[Dovecot] Please help me resolve why mail isn't being delivered to virtual users
by Andrew Falanga 12 Jan '08

12 Jan '08

Hi, I have to admit that I'm not quite sure why no one has responded to me about this one. If I'm not providing enough information or incorrect information please tell me. It's quite important that this e-mail system be working. I do not quite understand what it is that I'm missing now. I have the need to setup and configure various users as virtual users. To this end, I've configured them so that their home directories are "/virtusers/<userid>" and their INBOXes are "/var/mail/<userid>." I have created a system user ID called "vmail" which is referenced in my PostgreSQL database for UID/GID stuff. All virtual user home directories and INBOXes are made owner "vmail" and group is "users." Originally, I had my sendmail "/etc/mail/aliases" file setup to "map" all mail sent to these virtual users to the system user "vmail." However, none of the virtual users were getting any mail and vmail was just getting swamped. After doing more digging, I found that I just didn't understand the home directories and INBOX, mbox and such. That's what drove me to configuring what's in there now. Now, following directions on this WIKI page: http://wiki.dovecot.org/LDA/Sendmail?highlight=%28deliver%29 I'm still unable to get the e-mail working for them. Continually, sendmail bails with errors saying it, "Can't create output." Because I am using *.mc files, I made a new *.m4 file as directed in /usr/share/sendmail/cf/mailer. Dovecot does allow the virtual users to login. In fact, when I did, the first time, there appears a "mail" directory in their home directories after login. This would indicate to me that the login was successful. Further, I cut/pasted a message sent to one of the virtual users from the vmail INBOX (/var/mail/vmail) into the virtual user's INBOX (/var/mail/jdunkin). Then, logged in as this virtual user and ACTUALLY got the mail. I know this stuff works. What must be done to make sendmail do its thing for deliver? What is necessary to fix this situation? Andy

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[Dovecot] Allow_nets
by Evaggelos Balaskas 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I use the allow_nets password extra field [0] for my users. Is there a way to use this functionality for ALL users, and not to edit my passwd-file every time a new user is added ? The alternative i am working for this is the TCP Wrappers. [0]: http://wiki.dovecot.org/PasswordDatabase/ExtraFields/AllowNets -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkd7ZzIACgkQWIK+Pe9twhrRDQCgjui9zyG67n6kA5I1Lf+0efvg cvIAoMe7+gniwfbZdFGh8UERtuw7IG0K =KKQk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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[Dovecot] Dovecot-imap, tls, gnus
by Richard G Riley 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

I have a connection to my dovecot server from gnus: ,---- | (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods | '(nnimap "hermes" | (nnimap-stream starttls) | (nnimap-address "hermes") | (nnimap-authinfo-file "~/.authinfo"))) `---- If I enter a group and read my mail then wander off and come back after a few minutes I can not navigate out of the group because my nnimap session has ended. What config parameter do I need to change in Dovecot to keep it open for the life of the client? (I am assuming its a dovecot issue here since it didn't happen with courier-imap).

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[Dovecot] Problem: "Missing IMAP reply key: F"
by Claus Atzenbeck 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

Hi all: I installed dovecot v1.0 (on Mac OS X) and want to connect to is on localhost via Pine or Alpine, but it fails. Pine's debug mode tells me the following: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Debug output of the Pine program (debug=2 debug_imap=4). Version 4.64 (OSX) [...] Terminal type: screen About to open folder "INBOX" inbox is: "INBOX" IMAP 14:40:22 1/11 mm_log babble: Trying IP address [::1] IMAP 14:40:22 1/11 mm_log warning: Connection failed to localhost,143: Connection refused IMAP 14:40:22 1/11 mm_log babble: Trying IP address [127.0.0.1] IMAP DEBUG 14:40:22 1/11: F IMAP 14:40:22 1/11 mm_notify warning: {localhost}inbox: Missing IMAP reply key: F IMAP 14:40:22 1/11 mm_notify bye: {localhost}inbox: [CLOSED] IMAP connection broken (server response) IMAP 14:40:22 1/11 mm_log error: [CLOSED] IMAP connection broken (server response) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I use the options "disable_plaintext_auth = no" and "ssl_disable = yes", because I don't need encryption. (I only access the server from localhost.) What does "Missing IMAP reply key: F" mean? Any easy way to solve the problem? Thanks for any hint! Claus

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[Dovecot] Automatically subscribe to folder?
by Christian Flothmann 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

Hello everybody, i am filtering e-mails using the cmusieve-plugin. A global script filters all mails tagged by SpamAssasin and moves them into the folder Spam: if header :is "X-Spam-Flag" "YES" { fileinto "Spam"; } My problem is that users who did not had a folder Spam until the first time of filtering a spam mail are not automatically subscribed to this new created folder. They have to do this step manually in their mail client. Is it possible to automate this script and subscribe the account to this folder when it is created by the sieve script? Regards, Christian

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[Dovecot] Test Environment Question
by Stewart Dean 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

I have my master IMAP server running DC V1.0.10. The homedir and INBOXdir are physically resident there and NFS exported (no caching) to 3 other machines. I have installed V1.1beta13 on one of them (which thus accesses the homedir/INBOXdir remotely) and plan to have a limited community test-drive it there. Are there any hazards or drawbacks in doing this? While the homedirs and INBOXdirs are thus shared, I have it so that each machine has its own local index directory and /var/run dir. Comments or dire warnings?

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Re: [Dovecot] deliver triggering SELinux AVC denials
by greno＠verizon.net 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

>From: Timo Sirainen <tss(a)iki.fi> >Date: 2008/01/01 Tue PM 09:18:05 CST >To: Gerry Reno <greno(a)verizon.net> >Cc: dovecot(a)dovecot.org >Subject: Re: [Dovecot] deliver triggering SELinux AVC denials ... >Set dotlock_use_excl=yes to see what file it's really wanting to create. Ok, did that. And looking at all the alerts it appears to be any file that deliver is trying to write under /home/vmail. My users are all virtual and they all exist like: /home/vmail/example.com/john typical permissions: -rw------- 1 vmail vmail 464 2008-01-01 20:06 dovecot.index.log but for some reason even though deliver is setup to run as vmail:vmail it is still having permission problems. dovecot unix - n n - - pipe flags=DRhu user=vmail:vmail argv=/usr/libexec/dovecot/deliver -d ${recipient} ???? Gerry

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[Dovecot] number of auth process
by Jorge Salamero Sanz 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

hi there, what are exactly the differences between auth_worker_max_count = 30 and auth default { count = 1 } ? first are threads (for threaded auth methods) and second the number of process ?

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[Dovecot] [dovecot][configure] docdir option lost
by Guth 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

Hi, While building dovecot-1.0.10 i've a trouble with --docdir configure option. It seems this option overload is "lost" during makefiles recurse generation (i didn't check others overload). Following are config.log and Makefiles cuts : ------------------- $ grep docdir dovecot-1.0.10/config.log dovecot-1.0.10/Makefile dovecot-1.0.10/doc/Makefile dovecot-1.0.10/doc/wiki/Makefile dovecot-1.0.10/config.log: $ ./configure --prefix=/usr --with-gssapi --with-ldap --with-sql --with-mysql --sysconfdir=/etc --localstatedir=/var --mandir=/usr/man --with-docs --docdir=/usr/doc/dovecot-1.0.10 dovecot-1.0.10/config.log:docdir='/usr/doc/dovecot-1.0.10' dovecot-1.0.10/Makefile:docdir = /usr/doc/dovecot-1.0.10 dovecot-1.0.10/doc/Makefile:docdir = $(datadir)/doc/dovecot dovecot-1.0.10/doc/wiki/Makefile:docdir = $(datadir)/doc/dovecot ------------------- I'll correct it in a dirty way (sed is my friend after Makefiles creation) because i want it built quickly, but i guess it shouldn't be hard to avoid this problem in futures releases. -- Guth

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[Dovecot] virtual domains/users and LDAP
by Anil 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

I have two suffixes in LDAP with users, e.g. ou=People, o=example.com ou=People, o=somethingelse.com I have the following two users: dn: uid=test1, ou=People, o=example.com uid: test1 mail: test(a)gmail.com dn: uid=test2, ou=People, o=somethingelse.com mail: test(a)yahoo.com uid: test2 The users login to IMAP as: test1(a)examle.com and test2(a)somethingelse.com. Here's an (excerpt) of the dovecot.conf file I am using: auth_bind = yes base = ou=People,o=%d scope = onelevel pass_attrs = mail=user pass_filter = (uid=%n) userdb static { args = uid=vmail gid=vmail home=/var/mail/apps/%d/%n } The problem I am seeing when the user logs in, the home dir is getting created incorrectly: Jan 3 14:08:12 vds5 dovecot: [ID 107833 mail.info] imap-login: Login: user=<test(a)gmail.com>, method=PLAIN, rip=, lip= Jan 3 14:08:12 vds5 dovecot: [ID 107833 mail.info] IMAP(test(a)gmail.com): Effective uid=500, gid=500, home=/var/mail/apps/gmail.com/test Jan 3 14:08:12 vds5 dovecot: [ID 107833 mail.info] IMAP(test(a)gmail.com): maildir: data=/var/mail/apps/gmail.com/test/Maildir ... I was expecting it to create the home dir under: /var/mail/apps/example.com/test1, since that is what they are logging in with. Any ideas? I am actually surprised that it even let me login with this configuration, something looks odd in this setup. :) Thanks, Anil

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[Dovecot] %d not recognized with LDAP
by Anil 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

I saw the recent threads but didn't help for me. Here's my configuration: The domain isn't getting expanded as per logs: Jan 4 08:06:40 vds5 dovecot: [ID 107833 mail.info] IMAP(admin): maildir: data=/var/mail/apps//admin/Maildir # 20080102: /usr/local/dovecot/etc/dovecot.conf listen: *:143 ssl_disable: yes disable_plaintext_auth: no login_dir: /usr/local/dovecot/var/run/dovecot/login login_executable: /usr/local/dovecot/libexec/dovecot/imap-login login_log_format_elements: user=<%n@%d> method=%m rip=%r lip=%l %c login_max_connections: 64 max_mail_processes: 128 mail_location: maildir:/var/mail/apps/%d/%n/Maildir mail_debug: yes auth default: passdb: driver: ldap args: /usr/local/dovecot/etc/dovecot-ldap.conf userdb: driver: static args: uid=vmail gid=vmail home=/var/mail/apps/%d/%n Here's the relevant LDAP configuration: auth_bind = yes pass_attrs = uid=user pass_filter = uid=%n I tried setting the mail_location to: maildir:~/Maildir and explicitly specifying the full path, but still the Maildir is getting created with out the %d. Of course, the user is logging in with "admin(a)domain.com". Any ideas?

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[Dovecot] Problems with AUTH=PLAIN in pop3
by Maykel Moya 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

I'm using Dovecot (1.0.10) locally to test SugarCRM. When I tried to set up a mail account in Sugar, it complains with -- SECURITY PROBLEM: insecure server advertised AUTH=PLAIN Please check your settings and try again. -- don't know if that behaviour is a bug or a feature of php-imap. The case is that I'm unable to set up the mail account in Sugar. Timo answered to me on IRC about Dovecot assuming that a connection from the same ip is considered secured. I'd rebuild Dovecot with the following patch: --- dovecot-1.0.10/src/pop3-login/client.c.orig 2008-01-05 00:44:14.000000000 -0500 +++ dovecot-1.0.10/src/pop3-login/client.c 2008-01-05 00:44:30.000000000 -0500 @@ -331,7 +331,7 @@ client->created = ioloop_time; client->refcount = 1; client->common.tls = ssl; - client->common.secured = ssl || net_ip_compare(ip, local_ip); + client->common.secured = ssl; client->common.local_ip = *local_ip; client->common.ip = *ip; --- but still not able to make it not accept AUTH PLAIN authentication from the same ip. I'm missing something? On the other hand, if I set disable_plaintext_auth to yes I cannot use the classic USER/PASS pop3 verbs. I'm not sure what the POP3 related RFCs mandates with respect to this. Regards, maykel

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[Dovecot] Imap assertion (dovecot-1.1.beta13)
by Nuno Lopes 11 Jan '08

11 Jan '08

Hi, I continue testing the beta versions and have seen a great improvement over the last few ones. On beta13 I'm seeing the following assert on some client folders: file index-mail.c: line 759 (index_mail_stream_destroy_callback): assertion failed: (mail->data.destroying_stream) If you need I can try and reproduce this in a more controled environment to pinpoint the problem. Thanks, -- Nuno Lopes

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[Dovecot] [debian] Etch Packages Available for v1.0.10
by Brian T Glenn 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Compiled only for i386 with source package available. deb http://debian.delink.net/ etch-delink main deb-src http://debian.delink.net/ etch-delink main Cheers, - -- Brian T Glenn http://www.delink.net/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHfcGYFy/L+4MovqIRAgJUAJ4/fcaLb/Cyeo8s42EnAOu5MZr4CgCdGgBK 2RuF/zkrGBsQzElZSBJBCaI= =dGHp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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[Dovecot] Too many open files
by Andrew Hutchings 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

Hi Guys, Just got this on one of my test72 dovecot servers: - Jun 10 12:40:28 svr21 dovecot: auth(default): net_connect_unix(/var/run/dovecot/auth-worker.18818) failed: Too many open files Jun 10 12:40:28 svr21 dovecot: pop3-login: Disconnected: method=PLAIN, rip=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, lip=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx Jun 10 12:40:28 svr21 dovecot: pop3-login: Disconnected: method=PLAIN, rip=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, lip=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx Jun 10 12:40:28 svr21 dovecot: child 18818 (auth) returned error 89 Jun 10 12:40:29 svr21 dovecot: Auth process died too early - shutting down Jun 10 12:40:29 svr21 dovecot: auth(default): mysql: Connected to localhost (maildb) Jun 10 12:40:29 svr21 dovecot: auth(default): net_connect_unix(/var/run/dovecot/auth-worker.13784) failed: No such file or directory Jun 10 12:40:29 svr21 dovecot: child 13784 (auth) returned error 89 - Is dovecot leaving files open? Or is it a large mailbox? Regards Andrew -- Andrew Hutchings (A-Wing) Linux Guru - Netserve Consultants Ltd. - http://www.domaincity.co.uk/ Admin - North Wales Linux User Group - http://www.nwlug.org.uk/ BOFH excuse 122: because Bill Gates is a Jehovah's witness and so nothing can work on St. Swithin's day.

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[Dovecot] Switch from courier to dovecot
by Richard G Riley 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

I have an courier IMAP server running. To get sib dirs working I had to rename them all to begin with a period ".". e.g Maildir Maildir/{cur,new,tmp} Maildir/.account1/{cur,new,tmp} Maildir/.account2/{cur,new,tmp} Maildir/.account3/{cur,new,tmp} etc If I uninstall Courier and install dovecot, will these "period" dirs be seen by default? I am fairly new to this and sometimes it seems that Maildir format requirements vary a lot depending on client or server. Thank you for your help.

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Re: [Dovecot] Per user mailbox quota
by Ranjith Kumar 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

I have read the links and where can I mention these extra fields (in /etc/passwd file??). Thanks BAT Message: 2 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:47:05 +0100 From: Luuk <dovecot(a)vosslamber.nl> Subject: Re: [Dovecot] Per user mailbox quota To: Dovecot Mailing List <dovecot(a)dovecot.org> Message-ID: <1199893625.5147.0.camel(a)opensuse.vosslamber.nl> Content-Type: text/plain On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 19:19 +0530, Ranjith Kumar wrote: > Hi, > > How do I setup per user mailbox quota? I am using /etc/passwd database. > > Thanks > BAT > >read this: >http://wiki.dovecot.org/Quota >and this: >http://wiki.dovecot.org/UserDatabase/ExtraFields >and you should know, how to do this.... greetings, Luuk

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[Dovecot] Too many open files
by Harrison Metzger 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

Hello, I have dovecot installed and it works for about 3 hours then I get this error (in /var/log/maillog): Jan 8 08:42:53 stu dovecot: auth(default): pam(grossmsm,69.131.100.47): pipe() failed: Too many open files I set pam_limits.so to allow the user 'dovecot' to have 8192 open files, and I also changed: login_process_size = 512 However, it still wont work for more than a few hours. When I run: lsof -p `ps -o pid= -C dovecot-auth` I get: [...] dovecot-a 1385 root 248u sock 0,5 374241289 can't identify protocol dovecot-a 1385 root 249u sock 0,5 374241391 can't identify protocol dovecot-a 1385 root 250u sock 0,5 374243642 can't identify protocol dovecot-a 1385 root 251u sock 0,5 374241701 can't identify protocol [...] And the number followed by a u keeps growing. As of writing this email that number is now at 274u. Is dovecot not closing its fd's or something? Harrison Metzger

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[Dovecot] OT: ctimes
by Jeff Grossman 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

I am going to convert my 32-bit Debian system to a 64-bit Debian system today. But, after I move my maildir files over to the new hard drive the ctimes are going to get modified to current time and mess up my automatic purge scripts for the Deleted Items folders. Is it possible for me to either keep the existing ctimes or is it possible for me to modify the ctimes to the date headers of the emails after I move the files? Thanks, Jeff

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[Dovecot] Dovecot indexing questions
by Asheesh Laroia 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

I was playing with Dovecot 1.1 full text indexing through Squat in late October, which was working pretty well. I wanted to ask about this behavior I had: When an email arrives in INBOX using procmail (which delivers to my Maildirs), and I see it in Dovecot, when I next do a search (IMAP SEARCH TEXT) of that folder, the search takes a long time. Successive searches are lickety-split. My question is: Can there be an option to "index greedily"? As soon as Dovecot sees the message, I'd like it to update the Squat index. That way, searches are always fast. I guess this implies a small performance hit - namely, that my IMAP server spends CPU and disk time indexing every message at the first time it is seen rather than being able to do batch indexing each time SEARCH TEXT is issued. But when I think about that, that sounds like the server can waste its time so I don't waste mine - which is exactly why I like these computing machines! (That, and because I can waste my time programming them.) -- Asheesh. -- Use extra care when cleaning on stairs.

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[Dovecot] Logging to stderr
by Abhijit Hoskeri 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

Hi, I am having a bit of a problem with logging to stderr. I am trying to run dovecot as sort of "inetd" install using daemontools. I have daemontools 'services' named dovecot-pop3, dovecot-imap, etc. The service command line looks like tcpsvd -c20 -v -l 0 0 110 /usr/lib/dovecot/pop3-login [--ssl] In dovecot/dovecot.conf, the log_path is set to /dev/stderr. What seems to be happening is that all the log lines (regardless of service) go to the log file of which ever service was first used. Exactly how are these logs written? Is it possible to (easily) make the login process write to its own stderr? Thanks, -Abhijit

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[Dovecot] Trash plugin in 1.0.x
by Ralf Hildebrandt 10 Jan '08

10 Jan '08

Does the Trash plugin in 1.0.x log it's dirty deeds somehow? I'd like to see that it works :) -- Ralf Hildebrandt (Ralf.Hildebrandt(a)charite.de) plonk(a)charite.de Postfix - Einrichtung, Betrieb und Wartung Tel. +49 (0)30-450 570-155 http://www.arschkrebs.de Arguing with good advice will result in lack of good advice. -- Victor Duchovni

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